Noah's Flood from a Baha'i perspective, fact or fantasy?

[spirit_of_dawn]

The official Baha'i party line on Noah's flood sums down to this: Noah's flood is a fantasy, it never existed, and whatever has been mentioned in religious books about the flood is symbolic. This can be deduced from Shoghi's statement about this matter:

"The statement in ‘Seven Days of Creation’ certainly cannot be considered authoritative or correct. The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical." (Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File, chap. XLI, no. 1716.)​

However, contrary to Shoghi, Baha'u'llah believes it is very true and it encompassed all of earth and is a reason that many historical records (including the names of Prophets were lost):

"Manifestations . . . have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world. Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events."​

So according to one Baha'i leader the flood is fantasy and the other considers it fact and uses it as an argument to explain why many historical records were destroyed. Would it be wrong to assume from the aforementioned statements that according to the Baha'i belief:

Years ago there was a great symbolic flood that never existed but anyway managed to destroy everything on earth.​

 

[Woberts]

Eh, what would you expect? It's a religion, of course it's going to be contradictory.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The official Baha'i party line on Noah's flood sums down to this: Noah's flood is a fantasy, it never existed, and whatever has been mentioned in religious books about the flood is symbolic. This can be deduced from Shoghi's statement about this matter:

"The statement in ‘Seven Days of Creation’ certainly cannot be considered authoritative or correct. The Ark and the Flood we believe are symbolical." (Helen Bassett Hornby, Lights of Guidance: A Bahā’ī Reference File, chap. XLI, no. 1716.)​

However, contrary to Shoghi, Baha'u'llah believes it is very true and it encompassed all of earth and is a reason that many historical records (including the names of Prophets were lost):

"Manifestations . . . have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world. Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events."​

So according to one Baha'i leader the flood is fantasy and the other considers it fact and uses it as an argument to explain why many historical records were destroyed. Would it be wrong to assume from the aforementioned statements that according to the Baha'i belief:

Years ago there was a great symbolic flood that never existed but anyway managed to destroy everything on earth.​

My understanding of the quote you have extracted above, needs the context before and then the remaining context after to understand what was said. The whole passage needs to be read. It can ne read here;

Bahá'í Reference Library - Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 172-175

You have also not quoted correctly, you included two different passages in the same quote

Thus the first part gives the reason why the records are not available and to me the last part quotes the contradictory stories, to which are included the deluge stories. We are then told to turn to the Writings of Baha'u'llah for understanding.

Thus you have quoted out of context and what Baha'u'llah has said supports what the Lights of Guidance quote has said.

"...Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Juk it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed. Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions. (Bahá’u’lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, 2nd. ed., p. 174-175)

Peace be with you.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Eh, what would you expect? It's a religion, of course it's going to be contradictory.

The full quote is now provided above and is clear when read in full.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The full quote is now provided above and is clear when read in full.

Regards Tony

:sigh:

The full quote further affirms what I stated. Someone asks Baha'u'llah how come there is no record of previous Prophets and he mentions some reasons including the flood that destroyed everything on earth. And man other cataclysms. Here is the full statement for reference:

LXXXVII: And now regarding thy question, “How…

And now regarding thy question, “How is it that no records are to be found concerning the Prophets that have preceded Adam, the Father of Mankind, or of the kings that lived in the days of those Prophets?” Know thou that the absence of any reference to them is no proof that they did not actually exist. That no records concerning them are now available, should be attributed to their extreme remoteness, as well as to the vast changes which the earth hath undergone since their time.
Moreover such forms and modes of writing as are now current amongst men were unknown to the generations that were before Adam. There was even a 173 time when men were wholly ignorant of the art of writing, and had adopted a system entirely different from the one which they now use. For a proper exposition of this an elaborate explanation would be required.
Consider the differences that have arisen since the days of Adam. The divers and widely-known languages now spoken by the peoples of the earth were originally unknown, as were the varied rules and customs now prevailing amongst them. The people of those times spoke a language different from those now known. Diversities of language arose in a later age, in a land known as Babel. It was given the name Babel, because the term signifieth “the place where the confusion of tongues arose.”
Subsequently Syriac became prominent among the existing languages. The Sacred Scriptures of former times were revealed in that tongue. Later, Abraham, the Friend of God, appeared and shed upon the world the light of Divine Revelation. The language He spoke while He crossed the Jordan became known as Hebrew (Ibrání), which meaneth “the language of the crossing.” The Books of God and the Sacred Scriptures were then revealed in that tongue, and not until after a considerable lapse of time did Arabic become the language of Revelation….
Witness, therefore, how numerous and far-reaching have been the changes in language, speech, and 174 writing since the days of Adam. How much greater must have been the changes before Him!
Our purpose in revealing these words is to show that the one true God hath, in His all-highest and transcendent station, ever been, and will everlastingly continue to be, exalted above the praise and conception of all else but Him. His creation hath ever existed, and the Manifestations of His Divine glory and the Day Springs of eternal holiness have been sent down from time immemorial, and been commissioned to summon mankind to the one true God. That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.
Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events. Furthermore, among existing historical records differences are to be found, and each of the various peoples of the world hath its own account of the age of the earth and of its history. Some trace their history as far back as eight thousand years, others as far as twelve thousand years. To any one that hath read the book of Jük it is clear and evident how much the accounts given by the various books have differed.
Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the 175 Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions. ​

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The full quote further affirms

I do not read it that way.

I see you have managed to structure what was said to suit your view.

I see the explanation ceases at "to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world."

I then see the reference starts to the conflicting ideas which starts at "Mention has been made......."

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I do not read it that way.

I see you have managed to structure what was said to suit your view.

I see the explanation ceases at "to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world."

I then see the reference starts to the conflicting ideas which starts at "Mention has been made......."

Regards Tony

I f you really think the second statement is not further explanation of the first I cannot help you in any manner:

That the names of some of them are forgotten and the records of their lives lost is to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world.
Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events.
​

And for your information, in the original Persian text that I just referred to, the two statements are connected and not separate paragraphs.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So Baha'i has one leader that had some education and realized that the Flood story was a myth and another clung to the myths of his childhood. Religions are like that at times. At least in Baha'i there is a leader that did not believe in an obviously mythical tale.

 

[Dawnofhope]

I’ve never met a Baha’i who believes the account of Noah’s flood in Genesis is literally true. It’s an allegorical story about the relationship between God, man and His Prophets. Besides the scientific community is in agreement it didn’t happen. Sometimes Baha’is refer to the flood as an event, but always mindful of the symbolic, not literal significance.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

I’ve never met a Baha’i who believes the account of Noah’s flood in Genesis is literally true. It’s an allegorical story about the relationship between God, man and His Prophets. Besides the scientific community is in agreement it didn’t happen. Sometimes Baha’is refer to the flood as an event, but always mindful of the symbolic, not literal significance.

I would have to agree.

It is good to consider that many spiritual stories can be based on a material event. I see they would be embellished to impart the spiritual significance.

Thus we do know that Floods, Fires, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, drought and fierce storms can indeed wipe out populations and their records. It does not have to be a global event. It only needs to be an event that leads to the trace of an ancient civilization to be lost in time.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I’ve never met a Baha’i who believes the account of Noah’s flood in Genesis is literally true. It’s an allegorical story about the relationship between God, man and His Prophets. Besides the scientific community is in agreement it didn’t happen. Sometimes Baha’is refer to the flood as an event, but always mindful of the symbolic, not literal significance.

I would have to agree.

It is good to consider that many spiritual stories can be based on a material event. I see they would be embellished to impart the spiritual significance.

Thus we do know that Floods, Fires, Earthquakes, Volcanoes, drought and fierce storms can indeed wipe out populations and their records. It does not have to be a global event. It only needs to be an event that leads to the trace of an ancient civilization to be lost in time.

Regards Tony

However, Baha'u'llah confirms a flood occurred that destroyed everything on earth.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Please God thou wilt turn thine eyes towards the Most Great Revelation, and entirely disregard these conflicting tales and traditions.

However, Baha'u'llah confirms a flood occurred that destroyed everything on earth.

I think the quote says that Baha'u'llah has not confirmed a flood on a world scale. It told us to disregard those conflicting tales.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I think the quote says that Baha'u'llah has not confirmed a flood on a world scale. It told us to disregard those conflicting tales.

Regards Tony

I see the explanation ceases at "to be attributed to the disturbances and changes that have overtaken the world." I then see the reference starts to the conflicting ideas which starts at "Mention has been made......."

Regards Tony

We have this statement:

"Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events."​

You claim the red and blue sentences are no longer explanations but statements that we must disregard. Your argument becomes invalid when we read the blue sentence because it is obvious that the blue sentence is a fact and part of the explanation. This clearly shows that the explanation had never ceased and both red and blue sentences are considered as facts by Baha'u'llah and he mentions them as reasons for why he believes the names of previous prophets were destroyed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

We have this statement:

"Mention hath been made in certain books of a deluge which caused all that existed on earth, historical records as well as other things, to be destroyed. Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events."​

You claim the red and blue sentences are no longer explanations but statements that we must disregard. Your argument becomes invalid when we read the blue sentence because it is obvious that the blue sentence is a fact and part of the explanation. This clearly shows that the explanation had never ceased and both red and blue sentences are considered as facts by Baha'u'llah and he mentions them as reasons for why he believes the names of previous prophets were destroyed.

Obviously you are not seeing it as I do.

To sum it up as I see it written.

Baha'u'llah explains many reasons why records can be lost.

Then Baha'u'llah quotes tales from the past that could also be why records could be lost.

Baha'u'llah tells us to discard the conflicting tales and traditions.

Regards Tony

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Obviously you are not seeing it as I do.

To sum it up as I see it written.

Baha'u'llah explains many reasons why records can be lost.

Then Baha'u'llah quotes tales from the past that could also be why records could be lost.

Baha'u'llah tells us to discard the conflicting tales and traditions.

Regards Tony

And somehow he includes the following obvious fact among the list that you claim are tales that must be discarded:

"Moreover, many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events."​

There are only 2 possibilities here:
1- You are wrong and those statements are not tales but are what Baha'u'llah considers facts, including the flood, or
2- The above statement is a tale which would mean Baha'u'llah thinks that the following fact is a tale: "many cataclysms have occurred which have effaced the traces of many events" and we all know no sane person would consider this statement a tale.

 

[Shad]

Amusing how other sources of information such as those from sciences are omitted with only a focus on textual history. Narrow mind, narrow scope.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Muslims have beliefs similar to Christianity that Noah was a prophet and a flood occurred that killed all the evil people in the world. Further Muslims even believe Noah lived 950 years. Now the Muslims want to criticise the Baha’is because we place more weight on science rather than scripture to understand history. It seems hypocritical really, especially given the suppression of scientific knowledge that took place during the European Renaissance. Many Muslims deny scientific facts just like the Christian fundamentalists. The Muslims need to get their own house in order before they start criticising the Baha’is.

Noah in Islam - Wikipedia

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Muslims have beliefs similar to Christianity that Noah was a prophet and a flood occurred that killed all the evil people in the world. Further Muslims even believe Noah lived 950 years. Now the Muslims want to criticise the Baha’is because we place more weight on science rather than scripture to understand history. It seems hypocritical really, especially given the suppression of scientific knowledge that took place during the European Renaissance. Many Muslims deny scientific facts just like the Christian fundamentalists. The Muslims need to get their own house in order before they start criticising the Baha’is.

Noah in Islam - Wikipedia

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that Islam is an outdated belief based on unscientific facts. Ok, whatever you say. But, this claim does not whitewash the contradiction in Baha'ism where one leader considers the flood as fact and another leader as fantasy.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Let's suppose for the sake of the argument that Islam is an outdated belief based on unscientific facts. Ok, whatever you say. But, this claim does not whitewash the contradiction in Baha'ism where one leader considers the flood as fact and another leader as fantasy.

You are entirely missing my point.

Bahá’u’lláh lived all His life within Islamic Empires, first the Persian, then the Ottoman. His audience was largely Muslims not Christians. So His reference was more directed to the deluge (not worldwide) in the Quran rather than the worldwide flood in Genesis. There are important differences in the accounts. Furthermore His point is most likely to correct the misunderstandings amongst Muslims at that time that persist today. If Islam hadn’t become wrapped in superstition and hypocrisy, there would have been no need for Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation.

We all know how easy it is to take a few verses out of context, twist it give unintended meanings and then build a narrative of falsehood. To properly understand the Baha’i Revelation we need to consider all the verses, not just the ones that suit our agenda.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

You are entirely missing my point.

Bahá’u’lláh lived all His life within Islamic Empires, first the Persian, then the Ottoman. His audience was largely Muslims not Christians. So His reference was more directed to the deluge (not worldwide) in the Quran rather than the worldwide flood in Genesis. There are important differences in the accounts. Furthermore His point is most likely to correct the misunderstandings amongst Muslims at that time that persist today. If Islam hadn’t become wrapped in superstition and hypocrisy, there would have been no need for Bahá’u’lláh’s Revelation.

We all know how easy it is to take a few verses out of context, twist it give unintended meanings and then build a narrative of falsehood. To properly understand the Baha’i Revelation we need to consider all the verses, not just the ones that suit our agenda.

Thanks for the explanation. I now need to update my Baha'i logic list.

Baha'i logic:

1- That quote doesn't exist.
2- If it exists, it's not part of Baha'i writings.
3- If it's part of Baha'i writings it doesn't have an official translation.
4- If it has an official translation, you deliberately cited a thorny quote while ignoring the others.
5- If you weren't citing a thorny quote, you were twisting the statement to build a narrative of falsehood.
6- If you were not building a narrative of falsehood, you were taking it out of context.
8- If it hasn't been taken out of context, it's a statement that refers to the beliefs Islam or Christianity.
9- If it doesn't refers to the beliefs of Islam or Christianity it's a metaphor.
10- If it's not a metaphor you have an axe to grind.
11- If you don't have an axe to grind you are a Muslim from Iran and cannot be trusted.
12- If you are not a Muslim from Iran you still refuse to see the light.
13- If you are seeing the light then you're beliefs are no better than ours.