Fallen Prophet
Well-Known Member
Explain.False. That is a non sequitur.
Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?
Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.No. That is your belief coming to the surface here.
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Explain.False. That is a non sequitur.
Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.No. That is your belief coming to the surface here.
I'm not the one who is confused.You should review the words allegory and metaphor. That might help you understand.
Not so.I'm not the one who is confused.
Are you sure?I'm not the one who is confused.
Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".For example - if someone has not done their due diligence in studying the Word of God - prayer may not do them much good - because they do not have an idea to Whom they are praying.
Like you said - it's like talking to the wall.
Also - if that person is not taking the opportunity to apply what they studied into their life - like being chaste for example - then prayer might not help them much either.
Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith. You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.This - to me - is an example of people who didn't take the opportunity to study the Word of God.
Besides particular ordinances being performed by holders of the Priesthood - God encourages us to pray to Him ourselves.
The idea that people would ask their pastor to pray on their behalf is like asking someone else to go to college in your stead. It does you no good. You learn nothing.
And also the idea that people think of prayer as nothing more than wish making - that is sad.
Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.Well - you're not wrong. Many answers I have gotten through prayer have been along those lines.
God is not in the business of just giving us everything we need. If that were the case - then there would be no need for us to be here in mortality.
He almost always requires us to prove ourselves before He blesses us.
The times I believe I receive the most revelation is not when I'm praying - but when I'm either studying the scriptures or after I have been actively pondering on an idea for a time.
I believe that God wants us to use all that we have first. Exercise our minds, hearts and spirits - before He opens the gates of revelation.
Prayer can motivate us. Comfort us. Point us in the right direction - but He wants us to work out our salvation.
It is important - but there are some times when simply saying, "I don't know" is acceptable.
Like me and this case of Noah, the Ark and the Flood.
Okay, thanks for answering.I believe that the Atonement of the Lord Jesus Christ was revealed to Adam and Eve some time after their expulsion from the Garden.
This is why they and their children performed animal sacrifice - to be obedient to God's command to remember the Sacrifice of the Son of God.
This leads me to believe that this idea was passed down throughout all the generations of the Earth - yet not all of Adam's descendants were faithful - therefore many apostasies and false interpretations were had.
So - it is my belief - that the Christian concept of Sacrifice and the Atonement are the culmination of God's promises made to Adam and Eve - our first parents.
Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....Oh ok - this is where I diverge from other Christians I guess.
I believe that the Law has existed as long has God has - they are both co-eternal - and that God is perfect because He operates according to the Law.
I believe that He is God because of His adherence to eternal Law - and His sustaining and honoring the Law.
Basically - He did not make the Law up - it is the Law and He is a perfect Being because He does not violate it.
If any of us wish to become more like Him - we would need to keep the Law - however - since none of us are perfect - we are going to violate the Law along the way.
This condemns us - however - if the punishments for violating the Law were placed upon a willing Being - one who never once violated the Law - then the Law's demand for justice could be appeased.
The Lord Jesus Christ did not suffer and die for Man because God demanded it - but because the Law demanded that all the punishments were issued for the violations.
Guess we'll just disagree on that.I don't think that's so weird.
If my son were guilty of a crime - even unto death - and there was a way for me to be sacrificed in his stead - I may do it.
Of course - that is not the same case as with the Lord Jesus Christ and us - but it is all my feeble mortal brain can contemplate right now.
Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.These types of questions always lead me to ask one in return,
"If you were made all-powerful - would you do what you want to do or what you don't want to do?"
God adheres to the Law perfectly - not because someone has a gun to His head - but because that is His nature. That is what He wants to do.
And why? I believe it is because following the Law is the only means by which eternal life and joy are given and accomplished.
God can only forgive sin according to the Law - because that is who He is - He is a perfectly Lawful Being.
Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.I don't understand.
I mean - would it not be reasonable to assume that if two baseball players had the same coaches, same training regimen, same experiences, same work ethic, same workouts, same desires - that they would have similar outcomes when playing the game?
I understand that genetics may play a huge factor - but barring that?
Why can't you just say "I don't know"?And my experience tells me that if someone is not getting answers - then they are doing something wrong.
LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.No offense intended - but there will always be someone better than you at something - and if your first instinct is to be offended - doesn't that prove that you were not being humble?
Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.And if them saying that was enough to knock you off your game - were you being sincere in your seeking?
If Peter were to come and tell me that I'm doing something wrong - which I know I am all the time - then I wouldn't be a humble person if I got offended by that and I wouldn't be a sincere seeker of truth if that made me give up.
Please understand that I did not mean to say any of this as a judgment - because I know where you are coming from and how much you probably don't want to hear it.
Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.Of course - not everyone lives in the same house.
At your place - every light switch may work - but my place might have a few that don't - it all depends on how well we take care of our homes and our affairs.
If you are a person who does not take care of your home and doesn't always pay your electric bill - then you may have find yourself flipping dead switches.
If you take the time to study God's Word - learn who He is - and try to live by His commands - then your home will be better taken care of - and you can be more confident flipping those switches.
But it does require a certain specific amount of resources, planning and preparedness.
What if you flip a light switch that you haven't connected to any wires yet? What if the power company turned off your power because you weren't paying?
There are things that you need to do to ensure that the lights come on when you flip the switch.
If you don't do those things - you're never gonna get any light.
None of us are entitled to revelation - just like none of us are entitled to electricity.
If you want the light - either physically or spiritually - there are things you need to do.
I never said that we have not fallen. You read things in there that are not in anything I wrote. Apparently, for you, it must be the literal story or nothing.Explain.
Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?
Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.
Do you really think you could have resurrected that man? Do you often hear voices in your head? If so, do they usually tell you to do, or not to do things?I suppose that depends on what you are asking about/for.
I'm going to share a personal experience - there once was a time in my life when I was much more...adamant... about certain things than I am now.
I mean - I was praying all the time and I was really "jonesing" for those spiritual experiences - and I had some - but I wanted more.
I really wanted to be the next Apostle Paul or something.
During this time - my wife's grandfather died - and we went to the hospital to visit with family and to see him.
While we were there his daughters - all of which were nurses - were upset and wailing and demanding to see his chart. They couldn't believe it and wanted someone to blame.
I knew the guy well - super funny - and we all remarked on how he did not look dead. He retained color and he still felt warm to the touch.
When it came to be my turn to approach his bed and pay my respects - I was praying to God in my heart - nothing specific - but I wanted that connection there because of the solemnity of the scene.
When I touched this dead man's hand - I believe I had a revelation - and it consisted of a scene playing in my head.
In this scene I raised my right hand and I commanded this man to rise up - and he did - and his family began shouting joyously and I was initially very happy.
Then however - the family eventually turned to me - and they looked at me with awe and praise - and then the doctor and nurses entered and started asking questions.
This made me feel very uncomfortable - because I did not like how they were all looking at me and I didn't have the answers to their questions.
This scene played in my head for the span of a heartbeat - and then I was back in the room looking at this dead man - and I felt that if I did in real life what I had seen in my head - it would happen.
I stood there just staring at the face of this dead man I had known - teetering - weighing my options - and feeling this subtle pressure in my mind signifying that now was the time to make a decision.
Finally - after maybe thirty seconds - that feeling passed - I felt the window of opportunity close - and I was ashamed.
That was when I heard a voice in my head - and I recognized it but it was not my own voice - and it told me that I was not prepared to receive all the things I had been praying for.
I was not prepared to be the next Apostle Paul - because I was not willing to sufficiently change my life - not willing to accept all the responsibilities associated with those blessings and that authority.
Soon after I heard this voice one of my wife's aunt's remarked that their father no longer retained any color and that he finally felt cold.
I related the entire experience to my wife after we left - and I apologized to her for my unwillingness to bring her grandfather back - she believed me and told me that it just wasn't meant to be.
This experience has always stayed with me - telling me that it is more important to ask Him what we should pray for.
Because - even though I was praying all the time - I didn't actually want to be the next Apostle Paul - and I assume that God did not want that for me either.
This is why it is important to seek His will - through either prayer or His Word - and a desire to do it.
Sorry for the lengthy story.
Not from my POV. I see it as being because I tend to value objectivity, have good critical thinking skills, and am not prone to self-delusion.Of course I am - we are all Fallen. We are all spiritually weak and underdeveloped.
I'm sorry to say - but that's your pride talking.
Do you believe the Muslims that God put in Muslim cultures will be rewarded in the afterlife?Correct.
Don't ask me to find it - I mean I could - but I don't wanna - but there are verses in both the Old and New Testament that shed some light on this.
First - that our spirits came from God, second - that God knew us before we came to this world, third - that God chooses where everyone goes, fourth - that we can only receive as much of the truth as we are able.
There is truth in every religion. Some have more than others - but they all have truth.
All of the practicing Muslims I have personally met - without exception - have been wonderful, kind and patient people.
I know that their religion has a lot to do with that.
However - I remember having a conversation with a Muslim friend of mine about the Holy Spirit - and he said that in his religion that anyone who claimed to have received a witness from any spirit - holy or otherwise - would have been considered a crazy person.
They do not believe in having conversations with God or receiving witness through the Holy Spirit.
So - I believe that God knows them and He put them where they are - and which religion they follow - because that was all the truth that they themselves were willing to receive.
That may change in time - but they have what they need now.
So - yes - had I been born in a Muslim part of the world - I may never have gotten the opportunity to pray about anything and ask God for answers - and I would most likely be a Muslim.
That's true.Sure - but we kill each other over pretty much anything - possibly even curry.
I also don't see what the fuss is all about - but some people just like being in conflict and killing.
What's that based on? I don't recall any depictions of these previous conversations in the Bible.Well - "all" except what was on the Ark - right?
And He even told Noah to take "all" the food - didn't He?
I think we are lacking context.
I believe that God was referring to previous conversations that He had with Noah.
That the "all" was a reference to the things that they had discussed.
Kinda like, "You remember those people I was talking about? Yeah - all of them."
"You remember those food stuffs I told you to prepare? Bring all of that."
That's just my way of seeing it.
It is an irony that I often learn more about my own believing from those that do not believe at all than from those that shout all over the place how great they believe.Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".
Also, what kind of system is this where a person has to fully believe in it, study it, and understand it before something like prayer works? Does that mean all those stories of unsaved people living awful lives, but receiving sudden revelations about Christ are wrong? After all, they obviously hadn't studied the Bible or lived properly etc.
Seems entirely psychological to me.
Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith. You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.
Again, your reply can be seen as very insulting.
Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.
Okay, thanks for answering.
Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....
Guess we'll just disagree on that.
Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.
Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.
Why can't you just say "I don't know"?
LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.
It could very well be that the reason you're so quick to make so many unwarranted and baseless assumptions is that you're avoiding an uncomfortable conclusion and the consequences it might lead to. As you described, your faith is a big part of who you are today and how you turned your life around. So the conclusion that maybe it's all just made up and imaginary carries a lot of psychological risks for you, which is why you immediately made so many assumptions about me and my experiences.
You had to find an excuse for why things didn't "work" for me, because the alternative (your revelations and such were imaginary) is simply unacceptable.
As one of my old internet friends used to say....humans have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion. Why would you be any different?
Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.
Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.
That's similar to why I read, watch, and listen to right-wing media, even though I'm not a conservative. I already know what I, and people like me, think, so I'm not likely to learn much from them. I want to know what the other side thinks.It is an irony that I often learn more about my own believing from those that do not believe at all than from those that shout all over the place how great they believe.
Wow - I didn't assume this or anything else about you.Dude, I was immersed in Christianity from the time I was literally one week old. I went to church activities at least three days a week for 15 years. So please don't assume that I just didn't know enough about the Bible or Christianity for prayer to "work".
A system that requires a certain level of faith and understanding before receiving revelation.Also, what kind of system is this where a person has to fully believe in it, study it, and understand it before something like prayer works?
I don't subscribe to the "saved" system of belief.Does that mean all those stories of unsaved people living awful lives, but receiving sudden revelations about Christ are wrong?
After all, they obviously hadn't studied the Bible or lived properly etc.
Seems entirely psychological to me.
"You" Christians and "your" faith - eh? You're becoming rather divisive.Funny how you Christians can't agree on even the most basic things about your faith.
He was - several times.You'd think if this was all a revelation from a god, it'd at least be clear on important details like this.
It's 2021 - everything is offensive.Again, your reply can be seen as very insulting.
I cannot receive revelation for you.Well there ya' go....apparently God's message to me was to stop praying, forget the Bible, stop wasting time in church, and when I encounter problems I need to figure things out myself.
Well - would it help if I shared that I believe that all things are eternal - including you and I?Sorry, that still seems circular and nonsensical to me. But if it works for you, by all means....
You'd never consider sacrificing yourself for a loved one?Guess we'll just disagree on that.
How so?Again, that still seems nonsensical to me.
But things like training are completely subjective.Again you're trying to analogize to something that's physical and objectively measurable, which is entirely unlike prayer.
You can. I have done that with this topic. I have said so many times.Why can't you just say "I don't know"?
I don't think I assumed anything. You were offended by what they told you - you said as much.LOL....or it proves that it's a result of self-delusion. And again, I have to point out that you're assuming all sorts of things about my experiences, even though I only told you very little about them.
I struggle with pride all the time.It could very well be that the reason you're so quick to make so many unwarranted and baseless assumptions is that you're avoiding an uncomfortable conclusion and the consequences it might lead to. As you described, your faith is a big part of who you are today and how you turned your life around. So the conclusion that maybe it's all just made up and imaginary carries a lot of psychological risks for you, which is why you immediately made so many assumptions about me and my experiences.
Your personal experiences have as much of an effect on my beliefs as mine have on yours.You had to find an excuse for why things didn't "work" for me, because the alternative (your revelations and such were imaginary) is simply unacceptable.
I cannot confirm or deny any of this to you.As one of my old internet friends used to say....humans have an almost infinite capacity for self-delusion. Why would you be any different?
No - I'm trying to explain what humility and sincerity are.Oh I've heard this sort of thing from Christians before. They, just like you, also invoke the "you didn't do it right" excuse as a means to protect their own faith from an unacceptable possible alternative.
Once you receive the testimony from the Holy Spirit and start receiving revelation - it doesn't matter what other people say.Again, you're trying to analogize between objective, observable, measurable things (the existence of wires and connections, paid/unpaid status of a bill) and something that's 100% subjective.
No - that would not have been a Resurrection.Do you really think you could have resurrected that man?
Aw - so I'm a crazy person now?Do you often hear voices in your head? If so, do they usually tell you to do, or not to do things?
Of course - because you believe that religious people do not posses critical thinking skills. They need college to teach them that - right?Not from my POV. I see it as being because I tend to value objectivity, have good critical thinking skills, and am not prone to self-delusion.
I don't understand the question.Do you believe the Muslims that God put in Muslim cultures will be rewarded in the afterlife?
Did God destroy "all" life or not?What's that based on? I don't recall any depictions of these previous conversations in the Bible.
How could Man have Fallen without choice?I never said that we have not fallen. You read things in there that are not in anything I wrote. Apparently, for you, it must be the literal story or nothing.
Mine if founded on faith in the existence of God.
Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.Are you sure?
Are you sure? There is no evidence they were literal events. Seeing them as literal events is a belief.Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.
I am not confused.
I don't know. I never said that.How could Man have Fallen without choice?
I forgot the explanation. Your conclusion doesn't follow the premises.Explain.
Why does Man need to be Redeemed if they are not Fallen?
Yes - my belief that is founded on the scriptures.
Oh the irony!That is why I believe His use of the word "all" needs to be viewed from the proper context.
Since we know that they did not happen it appears that you are very confused.Yes - you believe they are allegories - I believe that they are mostly literal events.
I am not confused.
There is no evidence that the Lord Jesus Christ even existed - let alone that He died for my sins and rose from the dead.Are you sure? There is no evidence they were literal events. Seeing them as literal events is a belief.
When have I ever done this?Feel free to read anything into my words that you see fit. Whether it is there or not.