Nobody here understands me!

[Terry Sampson]

Some folks sleep with one eye open and a finger on the trigger of a gun.

 

[icehorse]

In reference to Confucius's idea about calling things by their proper name:

At the same time, those same descriptions can get in the way of our communication with people who aren’t seeing what we’re seeing.

While I think I can see what you're saying here, my first thought is that when we choose not to name things properly, we're just kicking the can down the road. On other words, postponing the actual discussion that will have to come as some point. While I understand that sometimes timing is important, I think that if we decide not to name things properly, we ought to acknowledge that we're involved in a postponement strategy

There, I did it again!

 

[icehorse]

I’m seeing online forum debates now as roleplaying games, and I think that might help me navigate through them better.

Hmm, can't quite decide whether this is an analogy or a metaphor. Either way, I think it will get you part way to your goal, but ultimately it can't get you all the way. It strikes me that this idea of yours is largely in keeping with the actors in debates as well. Apologists are playing a role and critics are playing a different role.

The difference I see, is that in online debates I think a lot of people are sincerely invested in their stances. I know I am. So on this forum, I play the role of secular humanist, but in my case that's because I really think that's the best approach to life that I'm aware of.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Maybe, maybe not ... Personally, I'm inclined to believe that "they" have hyperosmia. We'll see, ... (Trivia: For the record, I ain't one.)

I would agree that the hypocrisy has been seen. Religion always declines when man moves from what is a life of spiritual virtue to a world without that aim. It could be by withdrawing further from that aim, just adds to the smell.

Then that is the amazing thing, the longer the smell is around, the more it is not noticed. Thus it could be more of a sensory adaptation than an elevated view of life.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

Some folks sleep with one eye open and a finger on the trigger of a gun.

"Some other guys just figure, have a problem, whip a gun,
But a finger on a trigger can be dangerous, hurt someone.
Problems solve much better by staying calm and cool,
My horse and me keep riding, I ain't nobody's fool."

 

[Jim]

My recent discussion with @icehorse , about naming things for what they look like to us, has inspired me to come out of my closet about some things. I've already posted here and there, denouncing the practice of dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideology, as a social illness and the one threatening the most to blow up the world, along with other excuses and camouflage that people use for indulging their worst impulses. Now I want to denounce the practice of substituting words in the place of action, in response to the disasters happening in the world. One way I see people doing that is in campaigns of denunciation, intimidation and vandalism, as ways for people to pretend that they're trying to help solve the problems, and as excuses and camouflage for indulging their worst impulses. My kid gloves are off now, in discussing those practices and others that I see as part of a race towards worldwide disasters far worse than the ones we've seen. Also, lame ideological excuses for indifference and complacency about what's happening, and for hardheartedness and callousness towards other people, and the online Cabaret and fiddling while Rome burns, and the online forum debating MMORPG. I'm calling all that as I see it, and I'll let the chips fall where they may.

 

[Jim]

While I'm on a rampage of calling things as I see them, some of the "Buddhism" and "Hinduism" that I've been seeing is starting to look to me like cultural appropriation it's disrespectful to the heritage of those religions, people using their names and parts of their stories to dress up anti-Christian prejudices and animosities, and personal philosophies that really have nothing to do with the historical religions, not caring at all about the history and cultures they're grounded in, and yet claiming their historical and cultural status as their own.

 

[Jim]

I see wonderful possibilities for using Internet forums in ways that could actually help solve the problems that people are debating about; help relieve distress; help reduce the damage from disasters and help people recover from them; help improve the lives of all people everywhere; and help with social progress. There might be better possibilities in social networks and other places on the Internet, but I don't see that as a reason not to do it in Internet forums also. I think it will happen, and I would like to be part of that if I could. I'm not against people using online forums for entertainment and social interaction, even if that's all they're doing in Internet forums. I'd like to see Internet forums being used more to help solve the problems, but that doesn't mean to me that everyone in them would have to be doing that all the time. My problem that keeps happening to me is thinking that people are doing that when they aren't. I keep being fooled again and again by people's facades, roleplaying games, masquerades, pantomimes and camouflage.

 

[Jim]

I'm using this thread as a way of thinking out loud, to help me sort things out in my own mind, and also to possibly get ideas from others, if they see what I'm seeing. I see what's happening in Internet forums as people using them mostly for entertainment and social interaction. For some people it might be their only social interaction. For some, it might be taking a break from the kind of life of service that I would like to encourage and support, and not a place where they would ever want to talk about that life. For various reasons, recreation and social interaction might be the best ways for people to spend their time here sometimes. The situation is different for me. My reasons for posting in Internet forums have always been for what I'm doing to try to help solve social problems and help with social progress. In the beginning it was part of freeing myself from my own prejudices and delusions. Later it was trying to be a friend to people I saw being marginalized and stigmatized. Now it's about possibilities that I see in Internet discussions for us all to get ideas and encouragement from each other, that will help us in whatever good that each of us is doing and hoping to do, and for a better community life in the forums.

One idea that I tried recently was looking for things that people are doing in the forums, that look like community service to me, and to try to encourage and support that. Another idea has been to try to really understand what each person is trying to say, and post friendly questions and comments for that purpose. That's been a lot of fun for me, and I've seen it doing me a lot of good. Stopping often to pray and to remember a verse from my scriptures has also helped make my experience in these forums wonderful for me.

I've decided now to be more outspoken in denouncing some practices that I see as part of a race towards worldwide disasters far worse than any that we've already seen. One of those practices is people making up excuses for indulging their worst impulses. Another is dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideologies. Another is endless, aimless debating about social issues, as a substitute for action. No, I'm not allowing any excuses for that either. That kind of roleplaying can use some other kind of fiction as a background, other than media stories and faction propaganda. People can debate about what's happening in one of the DC comics TV series, or some other TV series that everyone knows is fictional. I'm also not going to play into identity faction roleplaying games, or roleplaying games masquerading anti-Christian personal philosophies in costumes made by stitching together pieces cut out from the world's great religions, and stamping one or another of their names on them.

 

[Jim]

@icehorse I'm looking for a good name for a kind of Buddhism and Hinduism that I might be seeing. It dresses up anti-Christian personal philosophies in costumes made by stitching together pieces ripped out of the historical and cultural context of Bhuddism and Hinduism, and stamped with one of their names. I'm thinking of calling it "costume Buddhism and Hinduism," or "Halloween party Buddhism and Hinduism."

 

[Jim]

I'm not seeing the practices that I'm denouncing as problems in themselves, or individually in the people doing them. The problem that I'm seeing is in the popularity of those practices on all sides, for example the popularity on all sides of making up excuses for indulging our worst impulses, and the popularity on all sides of dividing people up into groups and categories defined by ideology. I see an urgent need for those practices to be widely and thoroughly discredited. First, by systematic and sustained efforts to free ourselves from them, and with those efforts in place, openly denouncing them. Along with all that, learning to be better friends to more people, all around us and across the widest ideological divides.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

We do role play online. Sometimes you have to. If I just ever talk about my opinions on cheese like I do with my family, and am not more vocal online... Well, most people won't pick up on the things I want to talk about. So yeah, sometimes we do almost play devil's advocate a bit to get points across.

You seem to think that everything is broken in doing so... I view it more as a system that works bad sometimes, and irritates some, but the more positive of it gets overlooked where real friendships are formed because people took on a bit of (not so dishonest) role-playing.

I also don't even mind if someone role-plays a stance different than mine because well, at least now I know their thoughts and we can have good debates.

 

[Jim]

Another practice I might want to denounce is making up excuses for living a life that revolves around self-gratification and self-worship.

 

[Jim]

We do role play online. Sometimes you have to. If I just ever talk about my opinions on cheese like I do with my family, and am not more vocal online... Well, most people won't pick up on the things I want to talk about. So yeah, sometimes we do almost play devil's advocate a bit to get points across.

You seem to think that everything is broken in doing so... I view it more as a system that works bad sometimes, and irritates some, but the more positive of it gets overlooked where real friendships are formed because people took on a bit of (not so dishonest) role-playing.

I also don't even mind if someone role-plays a stance different than mine because well, at least now I know their thoughts and we can have good debates.

I might not disagree with you about any of that. What I'm objecting to is using media stories and faction propaganda as material for the debating. Maybe the same purposes could be served, possibly with less harm, by using currently popular TV series that everyone knows are fiction.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I might not disagree with you about any of that. What I'm denouncing for now is using media stories and faction propaganda as material for the debating.

I do consider that much broken as well, just from my experience on other sites (not here). I've tried to tell people on other sites as well, but they wouldn't listen, and probably won't until it becomes one big trainwreck. Wouldn't be so bad if the problem was more mild.

 

[Jim]

I'm not sure how much good it would do to mock and ridicule all the excuses that people use for indulging their worst impulses, for dividing people up into categories defined by ideology, for alienating themselves from others, for participating in campaigns of denunciation and intimidation, for substituting words in the place of action, and for exempting themselves from the work that needs to be done, but I'm tempted to try it. Then again, learning to do that would take too much time and effort from better things I could be doing.

 

[PoetPhilosopher]

I'm not sure how much good it would do to mock and ridicule all the excuses that people use for indulging their worst impulses, for dividing people up into categories defined by ideology, for alienating themselves from others, for participating in campaigns of denunciation and intimidation, for substituting words in the place of action, and for exempting themselves from the work that needs to be done, but I'm tempted to try it. Then again, learning to do that would take too much time and effort from better things I could be doing.

I find that the less I tell people what needs to be done, and the more I focus on spiritual state and Western views on karma (the idea that people don't need to sort people too much because a cosmic balance shows people the way)... Well eventually everything kind of balances out. Or maybe I just notice less.

 

[Jim]

I keep getting new thoughts about the possibilities in Internet forums in relation to the possibilities I see for the future of the world. I'm thinking now that as people wake up more and more to their responsibilities and possibilities in life, they'll be using electronic communications more and more consciously and systematically to get ideas and encouragement from each other, all across the world and across all the delusional dividing lines that people are currently imagining between us. At the same time, there will be more and more communication and collaboration all around the world, at the levels of neighborhoods and villages, cities, islands, and other levels below the national level. That might mean that things will start getting better for all people everywhere in less than the five or ten generations that I've been thinking, maybe only two or three more. Global monopoly games have made themselves irrelevant for now. They might become relevant again when they see that they're starting to lose their grip on the world's human and natural resources, and try to put a stop to that.

 

[icehorse]

I'm not sure how much good it would do to mock and ridicule all the excuses that people use for indulging their worst impulses, for dividing people up into categories defined by ideology, for alienating themselves from others, for participating in campaigns of denunciation and intimidation, for substituting words in the place of action, and for exempting themselves from the work that needs to be done, but I'm tempted to try it. Then again, learning to do that would take too much time and effort from better things I could be doing.

Not all ideologies are equal. Some are tolerant, some are intolerant. Sometimes people within an ideology actively try to separate themselves from all the others. Sometimes people are divided up by others because of their ideology.

For me, it gets back to the core values question. (Again, I'm speaking as a secular humanist, one who places an extremely high value on modern human rights.) Some ideologies espouse core values that I find reprehensible. I think it would be wrong of me to say nothing critical of those reprehensible ideologies. But even though my default stance is to be suspicious of theists, I find some theist ideologies to be in keeping with my values.

 

[icehorse]

@icehorse I'm looking for a good name for a kind of Buddhism and Hinduism that I might be seeing. It dresses up anti-Christian personal philosophies in costumes made by stitching together pieces ripped out of the historical and cultural context of Bhuddism and Hinduism, and stamped with one of their names. I'm thinking of calling it "costume Buddhism and Hinduism," or "Halloween party Buddhism and Hinduism."

Can you say more about the anti-Christian philosophies? Are you saying these costume Buddhists have legitimate criticisms of Christianity? or just knee-jerk disapproval?