Non-Americans with universal healthcare. Do you prefer your system or privatized like the U.S. Why?

[Cooky]

No it doesn't. The state/parliament/etc was NOT involved in the decision. Doctors made the decision and doctors are not hired hands.
The state had assisted the family and got so far with no sign of improvement or quality of life.

So, answer my question...how long should you keep someone alive that the best doctors say has no hope?

If you look back, I'm 99.9% sure the decision went before a judge in a court.

...the family, who pays the bill, orbin the case of socialized medicine, the family who signs paperwork, should decide how long to keep someone alive.

 

[Altfish]

If you look back, I'm 99.9% sure the decision went before a judge in a court.

...the family, who pays the bill, orbin the case of socialized medicine, the family who signs paperwork, should decide how long to keep someone alive.

The doctors had made their decision, the family didn't agree and it did indeed go to a judge who backed the doctors.

The family could have paid for private medicine to keep the child alive instead of going to the court. It would have cost about the same.

You cannot have the amateur and emotional parents dictating to fully trained and competent experts what the decision should be.

 

[Cooky]

You cannot have the amateur and emotional parents dictating to fully trained and competent experts what the decision should be.

That's right... In a socialized medical system they cannot.

...But in a free medical system, the amateur and the emotional can. I choose the latter.

 

[Altfish]

That's right... In a socialized medical system they cannot.

...But in a free medical system, the amateur and the emotional can. I choose the latter.

That poor parents like the ones we're talking about wouldn't be able to afford.
The poor ill child had marvelous treatment for an un-treatable disease.

 

[Yerda]

If you look back, I'm 99.9% sure the decision went before a judge in a court.

...the family, who pays the bill, orbin the case of socialized medicine, the family who signs paperwork, should decide how long to keep someone alive.

It's not about the family. It's about the patient.

In any case, you could have a universal healthcare system where parents can overrule medical professionals. It would just be an objectively poorer health service and would violate the rights of those in need of care.

In response to the OP, a couple of studies that seem relevant:

Health Insurance and Mortality in US Adults

Lack of health insurance is associated with as many as 44 789 deaths per year in the United States, more than those caused by kidney disease (n = 42 868).41 The increased risk of death attributable to uninsurance suggests that alternative measures of access to medical care for the uninsured, such as community health centers, do not provide the protection of private health insurance. Despite widespread acknowledgment that enacting universal coverage would be life saving, doing so remains politically thorny. Now that health reform is again on the political agenda, health professionals have the opportunity to advocate universal coverage.

Mirror, Mirror 2017: International Comparison Reflects Flaws and Opportunities for Better U.S. Health Care

The top-ranked countries overall are the United Kingdom, Australia, and the Netherlands.

 

[Shad]

No, I support a marvelous system that despite limited resources tried to keep the child alive but after taking advice from many doctors decided enough is enough.

You support a system which used a government edict to end the life of someone.

 

[dfnj]

For the last 30 years in the United States healthcare goes up on average 20%. It doubles every 5 years. It costs about the same as my mortgage. Nothing else goes up 20% per year. My salary hasn't gone up 20% per year. I hate healthcare in the United States more than any other thing in existence. I hate US healthcare more than taxes. Taxes do not go up 20% every year. I hate US healthcare more than the dentist! Well, maybe about the same. BUT I HATE IT.

If I die and have to go down a path of absolute suffering only to be reincarnated again as someone living in the New Jersey I will blame it all on the cost of healthcare in the United States. I will probably end up in Hell because of my hatred of US healthcare. I am consumed by hate. Everything that is bad in my life is because of the cost of US healthcare premiums.

 

[Altfish]

You support a system which used a government edict to end the life of someone.

You must watch too much Fox News, what was their line "Death Panels"?

It is nothing of the sort; the Government may set budgets but does not get into the day to day running of a hospital.
Look, there is much to fault with the NHS, but compared to the US system it is heaven. Also, remember in the UK we have a choice; if you can afford it you can still go privately in a system that is similar to the USA. In fact the NHS buys in some services from the private sector.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

You support a system which used a government edict to end the life of someone.

I find your exploitation of a baby's death to try and score some form of political points to be grossly disrespectful to the family, doctors and legal system involved.

I suggest you drop it now rather than continuing to make yourself look bad.

 

[Shad]

I find your exploitation of a baby's death to try and score some form of political points to be grossly disrespectful to the family, doctors and legal system involved.

Hey if the system is ordering the death of someone I am going to point it out. Also are you so quick to call "foul" when someone uses NHS against the US as scoring political points? Hilarious

I suggest you drop it now rather than continuing to make yourself look bad.

Why? I am against court ordered deaths that have nothing to do with a crime. Seems like a good point to talk about.

 

[Shad]

You must watch too much Fox News, what was their line "Death Panels"?

Nope I do not watch nor even have Fox News on my cable.

Fact is the court order prevent the parents from moving their child and cut. Also the NHS applied to the government to cut life support and won thus removing life support against the parents wishes.

It is nothing of the sort; the Government may set budgets but does not get into the day to day running of a hospital.

Yup I guess Alfie was messing up that budget huh

Look, there is much to fault with the NHS, but compared to the US system it is heaven. Also, remember in the UK we have a choice; if you can afford it you can still go privately in a system that is similar to the USA. In fact the NHS buys in some services from the private sector.

Alfie's parents had their own funding yet that didn't change the court's orders.

 

[Altfish]

Nope I do not watch nor even have Fox News on my cable.

Fact is the court order prevent the parents from moving their child and cut. Also the NHS applied to the government to cut life support and won thus removing life support against the parents wishes.

Yup I guess Alfie was messing up that budget huh

Alfie's parents had their own funding yet that didn't change the court's orders.

OK, believe what you believe;
I still know which is the best system for the population and that the poor child was given every chance until it became obvious and beyond doubt that all hope had gone.
In the US his parents would have been bankrupt.

 

[Shad]

OK, believe what you believe;
I still know which is the best system for the population and that the poor child was given every chance until it became obvious and beyond doubt that all hope had gone.

Then the government orders Alfies termination. Best until they decide to get a court to order the plugged pulled right?

In the US his parents would have been bankrupt.

His parents had tens of thousands of dollars to get him out of the NHS in the UK. At least in the US they could use the option instead of a government ordered death edict they faced in the UK.

 

[Altfish]

Then the government orders Alfies termination. Best until they decide to get a court to order the plugged pulled right?

His parents had tens of thousands of dollars to get him out of the NHS in the UK. At least in the US they could use the option instead of a government ordered death edict they faced in the UK.

Maybe I'm a bit slow but I can recognise a troll when I see one.

Goodbye

 

[Shad]

Maybe I'm a bit slow but I can recognise a troll when I see one.

Nope. I am just calling it as I see it and what the court ordered. Since you can not deny those facts nor refute you assert I am a troll as an excuse.

 

[SomeRandom]

Then the government orders Alfies termination. Best until they decide to get a court to order the plugged pulled right?



His parents had tens of thousands of dollars to get him out of the NHS in the UK. At least in the US they could use the option instead of a government ordered death edict they faced in the UK.

Look they went to court, presented their case and the judge found that the argument put forward by multiple medical experts that keeping the boy alive was only prolonging his suffering.
I know the US has an international reputation for entitled parents thinking they know what is best, despite not being trained. And that children are their property so it doesn’t matter if they suffer so long as they are “alive” but this is an extreme case with extreme circumstances. It’s not the general rule.
Besides, I’d rather live in a flawed system with my finances intact than try to cheat death whilst also financially crippling my loved ones, regardless of the treatment’s outcome.

 

[Shad]

Look they went to court, presented their case and the judge found that the argument put forward by multiple medical experts that keeping the boy alive was only prolonging his suffering.

There is was no suffering as per those opinions there was no brain. Ergo the point is invalid

I know the US has an international reputation for entitled parents thinking they know what is best, despite not being trained. And that children are their property so it doesn’t matter if they suffer so long as they are “alive” but this is an extreme case with extreme circumstances. It’s not the general rule.

No it is called rights of the parent and 4A.

Besides, I’d still live in a flawed system with my finances intact than try to cheat death whilst also financially crippling my loved ones, regardless.

Yup as you like your money. Yet if I like my money I got blasted for not wanting my money to pay for other peoples health problems. Why must my finances decrease due to a tax burden for others people's problems?

 

[SomeRandom]

There is was no suffering as per those opinions there was no brain. Ergo the point is invalid

If there’s no brain, what kind of science fiction type treatment is there even available? Were they going to replace it with a computer? Have a brain transplant?
I know there’s been a couple of examples of truly mistifying recoveries in extreme circumstances. But if a doctor told me a loved one had no brain and said pull the plug, I’d consider that a pretty reasonable course of action.

No it is called rights of the parent and 4A.

The parents right stops at the child’s wellbeing. Well ideally anyway.

Yup as you like your money. Yet if I like my money I got blasted for not wanting my money to pay for other peoples health problems. Why must my finances decrease due to a tax burden for others people's problems?

Uh, doesn’t America spend more on healthcare than literally the rest of the Western world?

 

[Altfish]

Nope. I am just calling it as I see it and what the court ordered. Since you can not deny those facts nor refute you assert I am a troll as an excuse.

OK,

 

[esmith]

Finland's government resigns after healthcare reform fails