Non-Anthropomorphic Immanent God = Atheism?

[Vinayaka]

It was suggested in another thread that a belief structure that views God as non-anthropomorphic and non-transcendent (immanent) is sexed-up atheism.

What are your thoughts on this?

It's up to individuals how they define God. The idea that it has to be one way or another seems overbearing to me. If someone wants to declare another's person's view is wrong or call them atheist, I suppose that's up to them, though, but it's not an inclusive way of looking at things.

 

[sayak83]

It was suggested in another thread that a belief structure that views God as non-anthropomorphic and non-transcendent (immanent) is sexed-up atheism.

What are your thoughts on this?

No it's not. Laika's answer is correct.

 

[idav]

Reread Spinoza. There is no certain type of God in pantheism. The God of pantheism is the physical cosmos. It is a symbolic use of the word 'God.'

It's another way to say all is god, I don't see the issue.

 

[idav]

It's up to individuals how they define God. The idea that it has to be one way or another seems overbearing to me. If someone wants to declare another's person's view is wrong or call them atheist, I suppose that's up to them, though, but it's not an inclusive way of looking at things.

I'm not sure but I think pantheism is being called some sort of idolatry!

 

[Satans_Serrated_Edge]

It was suggested in another thread that a belief structure that views God as ....

Let me just stop you right there. The second you are 'viewing god/s as' ANYTHING(besides imaginary) you are no longer dealing with atheism.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's another way to say all is god, I don't see the issue.

'All is god,' Is to simplistic, vague, and lacks an explanation as to what pantheism believes. It would depend on what 'all' is defined as. In Pantheism 'all' is the cosmos, therefore cosmos=God.

The use of 'all is God' could refer to various Monist belief systems.

 

[idav]

'All is god,' Is to simplistic, vague, and lacks an explanation as to what pantheism believes. It would depend on what 'all' is defined as. In Pantheism 'all' is the cosmos, therefore cosmos=God.

The use of 'all is God' could refer to various Monist belief systems.

Sure there are various types of pantheism when you want to be even etc more specific. The pantheism resembling atheism most is probably natural Pantheism.

This link seems like a decent reference.
Pantheism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy

 

[SalixIncendium]

My view is that it's mostly just weak-minded sophistry. If God is not transcendental, then God must be anthropomorphic, as it must exist within and through us. Yet, existence, itself, and including ourselves specifically, manifests inexplicable degrees of transcendence: from matter to life, and from life to conscious self-awareness. So to claim that God is a lesser form of existence, by claiming that God is not transcendental, defies the definition of a even a man, much less a "god".

This is the thought process that drove me away from Christianity to begin with.

Many Christians assume that their God exists only to cater to man, the Earth was created by God exclusively for man, and God and man consider all else to be "a lesser form of existence."

With all due respect, I find this thought process to be arrogant and a key driver in many of the world's problems.

 

[SalixIncendium]

This is only a convenience and limitation of human language...

Rubbish. There are several alternatives in the English language for gender neutral third person pronoun.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Incorrect and incomplete as far as far as the panentheist. The God of the panentheist is not equated with the same as our physical existence as pantheist view defines God. The panentheist God is separate from the physical existence, but in intimate association with the physical existence.

Incorrect. As I previously stated, God of the panentheist is both transcendent and immanent. Therefore is it both separate from and one with physical existence.

 

[SalixIncendium]

The God of pantheism is the physical cosmos. It is a symbolic use of the word 'God.'

Does God have to be supernatural for you? Why can't God be an natural part of existence?

 

[shunyadragon]

Sure there are various types of pantheism when you want to be even etc more specific. The pantheism resembling atheism most is probably natural Pantheism.

This link seems like a decent reference.
Pantheism - By Branch / Doctrine - The Basics of Philosophy

Your reference does not help your argument, and only describes some minor fringe views like Pan Deism, which are better described as a form of Deism. This does not change the primary definition of Pantheism that defines the cosmos=God, which is a symbolic representation of God and does not remotely fit the definition nor concept of God nor God(s).

The source described 'Cosmotheism' as distinct form of atheism. Classical and Naturalist Pantheism are described as the Dominant schools of pantheism, and describe God=cosmos. The rest are described as 'fringe views.'

The problem remains the statement 'all is God' is too vague and fits many different belief systems.

 

[idav]

My view is that it's mostly just weak-minded sophistry. If God is not transcendental, then God must be anthropomorphic, as it must exist within and through us. Yet, existence, itself, and including ourselves specifically, manifests inexplicable degrees of transcendence: from matter to life, and from life to conscious self-awareness. So to claim that God is a lesser form of existence, by claiming that God is not transcendental, defies the definition of a even a man, much less a "god".

Nature has the ability to be transcendant of itself, and that's talking an extraordinarily huge existence. All life are lesser degrees without directly harnessing that transcendance of existence.

 

[SalixIncendium]

'All is god,' Is to simplistic, vague, and lacks an explanation as to what pantheism believes. It would depend on what 'all' is defined as. In Pantheism 'all' is the cosmos, therefore cosmos=God.

What 'all' is defined as? Aside from the laundry detergent, 'all' is everything. Nothing excluded. Even the laundry detergent.

The use of 'all is God' could refer to various Monist belief systems.

Exactly. And all of those belief systems would be pantheistic, provided they did not believe in a transcendent, anthropomorphic being as God.

 

[shunyadragon]

Incorrect. As I previously stated, God of the panentheist is both transcendent and immanent. Therefore is it both separate from and one with physical existence.

Actually no, the Panentheist God is not necessarily one with the cosmos (pantheism), and it is indeed separate from the cosmos with an intimate relationship with the cosmos. In some ways you are picking frog hairs over definitions of slightly different philosophies of panentheism. The key is the difference is in pantheism God is not separate from the cosmos, but God=cosmos.

 

[idav]

The problem remains the statement 'all is God' is too vague and fits many different belief systems.

It's not a problem, it's an umbrella term, just like you got testy with me saying pantheism is a "type" of theism. It is simply a type of way of viewing God without having to invoke the supernatural. Why shouldn't God look like an atheist worldview, that's the closet to reality. Panentheism wishes to invoke something that is not testable and you want to pawn that off as something exceptional, pantheists won't tend to believe panentheists on supernatural aspects.

 

[shunyadragon]

What 'all' is defined as? Aside from the laundry detergent, 'all' is everything. Nothing excluded. Even the laundry detergent.

There are different theologies where 'all is defined differently. I pantheism 'all' is the physical cosmos where 'God=Cosmos.' Other world view include spiritual worlds, and existence with the cosmos as 'all.'

Exactly. And all of those belief systems would be pantheistic, provided they did not believe in a transcendent, anthropomorphic being as God.

There are world views that do not believe in a transcendent anthropomorphic being as God. and consider spiritual worlds beyond our physical existence inclusive of the 'all.' There are religions that consider the transcendent 'Source' some call God or God(s) as anthropomorphic. Your generalization fails when you consider the diversity of belief systems.

 

[SalixIncendium]

Actually no, the Panentheist God is not necessarily one with the cosmos (pantheism)...

pan·en·the·ism
paˈnenTHēˌizəm/
noun

1. the belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it.

panentheism - Google Search

If you want to make up your own definition for the word 'panentheism,' you are perfectly free to do so, but don't expect others to identify with or subscribe to your own personal definition.

 

[shunyadragon]

It's not a problem, it's an umbrella term, just like you got testy with me saying pantheism is a "type" of theism. It is simply a type of way of viewing God without having to invoke the supernatural. Why shouldn't God look like an atheist worldview, that's the closet to reality. Panentheism wishes to invoke something that is not testable and you want to pawn that off as something exceptional, pantheists won't tend to believe panentheists on supernatural aspects.

Your bouncing around citing marginal and fringe beliefs, and not responding when your backed into a corner. Of course anyone can believe anything, but belief systems do have definitions, and fundamentally pantheism does not believe in the transcendent, and there is nothing in existence but the cosmos, which is basically the same as atheism.

 

[shunyadragon]

pan·en·the·ism
paˈnenTHēˌizəm/
noun

1. the belief or doctrine that God is greater than the universe and includes and interpenetrates it.

panentheism - Google Search

If you want to make up your own definition for the word 'panentheism,' you are perfectly free to do so, but don't expect others to identify with or subscribe to your own personal definition.

Nothing changes, please not that interpenetrates and includes is also includes the part of the definition that God is also separate from the cosmos. Your picking partial definitions to argue your case. There are subtle variations, but the following must be included in your partial definition.

From: Panentheism - Wikipedia

While pantheism asserts that "all is God", panentheism claims that God is greater than the universe. Some versions of panentheism suggest that the universe is nothing more than the manifestation of God. In addition, some forms indicate that the universe is contained within God.