Non-Christians From Jesus Era Confirmed His Earthly Existence

[9Westy9]

None of these people lived during Jesus' lifetime. I have no doubts that the historical Jesus did exist and that people perceived him as a miracle worker, but people who were born after he died probably aren't the best source.

exactly

 

[Alter2Ego]

For future reference, it's PliNy the Younger, not PliMy.

Also, he was born in 61 AD and died in 112 AD. Facts. They're good to know.

It kills me when people talk about non-Christians that persecuted and killed Christians. What about the thousands of people that have been murdered in Christ's name?

Thanks for catching my error with Pliny's DOB. I actually have his correct dates. What happened was that I was trying to save myself from typing each of the sub-topics in upper case and bold, and so I simply copied the Tacitus info, including all the bolding, in all three places (for the three individuals). I neglected to revise Pliny's DOB.

 

[Skwim]

Below are the names of NON-CHRISTIANS who were born in the First Century AD when Jesus lived and died. All of the non-Christians provided were (1) people in powerful positions, (2) they were born in the same century in which Jesus lived and died, (3) they had no sympathy for Christians, and (4) they had nothing to gain from mentioning CHRIST in their writings. Therefore, their mention of CHRIST in their writings is all the more credible.
Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.


Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.


Plimy The Younger , Roman Governor

WHAT HE SAID: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."
.

Where is your supporting evidence these people said what you say they have? Links are always nice.

 

[Alter2Ego]

None of these people lived during Jesus' lifetime. I have no doubts that the historical Jesus did exist and that people perceived him as a miracle worker, but people who were born after he died probably aren't the best source.

ALTER2EGO -to- MYCORRHIZA:

I beg to differ. It's not necessary for an experienced and qualified historian to live within the same century of the person about whom he/she writes. All that is required is that the historian have access to credible records aka documentation--which is the case with all three of the individuals I used in my opening post.

I will go into more details about the prominence of these three individuals and the effect it had upon their access to records in a future post. That post will be directed to "EVERYONE," as I'm trying to avoid being accused of harassing anyone in particular; okay?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Where is your supporting evidence these people said what you say they have? Links are always nice.

I will provide you with links in my next post, which will be addressed to "EVERYONE."

 

[Alter2Ego]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The three persons I referenced in my Opening Post have been quoted by many scholars who are experts at spotting forgeries. The writings by Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tactitus, and Pliny the Younger have been authenticated. There will always be Bible critics coming up with unsubstantiated statements about forgeries, even when there is no evidence to support what they say. I will begin with evidence on Flavius Josephus.

In historian Flavius Josephus, I presented someone who was even closer to Jesus' culture than outsiders like Greek and Roman authors. I gave a JEWISH PHARISEE--someone belonging to the group of religious leaders responsible for Jesus' death.

Josephus was born around 37 AD--a mere four years after Jesus Christ was executed. As an adult, he became a Jewish Pharisee--the very same religious leaders that instigated the Romans into killing Jesus. Josephus' position as a Jewish Pharisee gave him easy access to the Pharisees' documentation of Jesus' execution that a lay person might not have been allowed to see. In other words, Josephus was one of THEM.


According to Bible history, the Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--felt threatened by Christianity and its founder Jesus Christ; they viewed him and his religion as a threat to their power. The scripture at John bears this out, as quoted below.

"{47} Consequently the chief priests and the PHARISEES gathered the Sanhedrin together and began to say: 'What are we to do, because this man performs many signs? {48} If we let him alone this way, they will all put faith in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation.' " (John 11:47-48)


Flavius Josephus joined the zealots who rebelled against Roman rule between 66 and 74 AD, becoming a leader of their forces in Galilee, and living through the Roman destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. He was captured by the Romans, and would have been executed, but he went over to their side and ended up becoming the Roman emperor's ADVISER ON JEWISH AFFAIRS.

So in addition to him having easy access to records of the Jewish Pharisees (because he was himself a Pharisee), this position as advisor to the Roman emperor gave him access to Roman historical records, which documented the execution of people by the Romans.


FYI: A historian does not have to live close to the time something happens; he simply needs access to accurate documentation of events that occurred. Flavius Josephus the JEWISH PHARISEE and ROMAN EMPEROR ADVISOR was in an excellent position to access the records of Jesus' execution.

His "Antiquities of the Jews" covers the whole of Jewish history up to AD 66. Out of twenty books, six cover the period from the reign of Herod the Great to AD 66 -- i.e. the period when Jesus lived. Concerning Jesus, Flavius Josephus wrote in book 18 of the Antiquities, pp. 63-64:

"About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man, for he was a performer of wonderful deeds, a teacher of such men as are happy to accept the truth. He won over many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. When Pilate, at the suggestion of THE LEADING MEN AMONG US [meaning the Pharisees], had condemned him to the cross, those who had loved him at the first did not forsake him; and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct to this day."



The above statement is a summarization/translation of what Josephus said. With that statement, he identified himself as belonging to the group that made up Jesus' former death squad--the Pharisees. Josephus had nothing to gain from confirming Jesus' historicity.


WHAT JOSEPHUS WROTE:
http://www.facingthechallenge.org/josephus.php

JOSEPHUS' CREDENTIALS:
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/flavius-josephus.htm

 

[fallingblood]

Paul could be added to the list. Paul was not a Christian, and lived during the time of Jesus.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Where is your supporting evidence these people said what you say they have? Links are always nice.

You are seriously considering debating that the Tacitus or Pliny are inauthentic? Oh please g'head.

 

[McBell]

This is the first and only time I put this info on this particular website. SPAM refers to posting the same thing, in different threads, on the same website. Or didn't you know that?

I understand your pick and choose and then ignore the rest style.

But for the rest of the world i shall present one of the definitions you chose to completely ignore:

3. To send many identical or nearly-identical messages separately to a large number of Usenet newsgroups. This is more specifically called ECP, Excessive Cross-Posting. This is one sure way to infuriate nearly everyone on the Net. See also velveeta and jello.
​

As you can see, there is no qualifier that even indicates that the posts have to all be on the same website.

nice try though.

 

[McBell]

I use Font #3, which is hardly oversized as it's only one size up from the default of Font #2. I prefer Font #3 because it's easier on my eyes. Unless you can show me where the forum rules say I cannot use Font #3, your complaint lacks merit. You debated me in another thread and have now become hostile because you didn't win the debate.

:biglaugh:
You have not won a debate on this forum.
I understand that you are unable to compute this fact, but in order to win a debate, you have to actually debate.

Besides which, I thought you pigeons were supposed to fly home before claiming victory?

 

[Nakosis]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

The three persons I referenced in my Opening Post have been quoted by many scholars who are experts at spotting forgeries. The writings by Flavius Josephus, Cornelius Tactitus, and Pliny the Younger have been authenticated. There will always be Bible critics coming up with unsubstantiated statements about forgeries, even when there is no evidence to support what they say. I will begin with evidence on Flavius Josephus.

I don't think too many around still argue against a historical person.

I'm convinced such a person existed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are seriously considering debating that the Tacitus or Pliny are inauthentic? Oh please g'head.

They're authentic, but unremarkable. They weren't eyewitnesses; they just chronicled the beliefs of the Christians of their time.

So really, all we can infer from them is that early Christians believed that Jesus was a real person. So what? This is hardly news.

As for Josephus, the Testimonium Flavianum (the passage that makes references to miracles) is generally dismissed as a later insertion. However, the other reference to Jesus (in the story of the high priest Ananus where it mentions a man named "James, brother of Jesus, who was called the Christ") is apparently authentic.

Testimonium Flavianum

But I'd second Jay's "therefore?" Because I'm not sure what we're supposed to infer from this. Even if the Christ myth was accreted to the story of a real person, it certainly doesn't substantiate any miracle claims.

 

[McBell]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Below are the names of NON-CHRISTIANS who were born in the First Century AD when Jesus lived and died. All of the non-Christians provided were (1) people in powerful positions, (2) they were born in the same century in which Jesus lived and died, (3) they had no sympathy for Christians, and (4) they had nothing to gain from mentioning CHRIST in their writings. Therefore, their mention of CHRIST in their writings is all the more credible.

PERSON #1:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Hostile

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

HIGHLIGHTS ON TACITUS: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."


PERSON #2:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Apathetic (could care less about them)

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

HIGHLIGHTS ON JOSEPHUS: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.


PERSON #3:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Plimy The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: 61 AD to 112 AD

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Hostile. He executed Christians

WHAT HE SAID: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

HIGHLIGHTS ON JOSEPHUS: Plimy condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.

Which of them, if any, actually saw Jesus with their own eyes?
Or are they all three merely repeating stuff they have heard?

And how exactly is repeating stuff you merely hear about proof that the stuff you heard about is true?

 

[Alter2Ego]

Which of them, if any, actually saw Jesus with their own eyes?
Or are they all three merely repeating stuff they have heard?

And how exactly is repeating stuff you merely hear about proof that the stuff you heard about is true?

ALTER2EGO -to- MESTEMIA:

Next you will be arguing that the historians of the 20th century who wrote books about the "founding fathers" of the USA took a time machine back a few centuries and were eyewitnesses of these people.

All that's required of a historian is access to documentary records. What is it about that don't you get? Go back and read what I said about Flavius Josephus in this thread. He was a Jewish Pharisee--which gave him a position of power among the Jews and access to records of executed Jews. He was also the Roman Emperor's Advisor, which further gave him access to the death records of people that had been executed by the Romans.
.

 

[McBell]

ALTER2EGO -to- MESTEMIA:

Next you will be arguing that the historians of the 20th century who wrote books about the "founding fathers" of the USA took a time machine back a few centuries and were eyewitnesses of these people.

All that's required of a historian is access to documentary records. What is it about that don't you get? Go back and read what I said about Flavius Josephus in this thread. He was a Jewish Pharisee--which gave him a position of power among the Jews and access to records of executed Jews. He was also the Roman Emperor's Advisor, which further gave him access to the death records of people that had been executed by the Romans.
.

I notice you did not answer any of the questions.

Would you like to try it again?
Perhaps the second go round you can actually answer the questions?

Or is this one of those "third times the charm" situations?

Or should we just skip past those answers you do not like to give and continue on with the fact that your three sources are merely repeating something that they heard about with no real actual evidence, let alone proof, that what they heard was true?

So even if one accepts that your three sources did in fact write what you claim they write you are still no closer to proving anything other than your three sources wrote what you say they wrote.

Now again, how does someone writing down something they heard prove that what they heard about, but have no first hand knowledge of, is true?

 

[Nakosis]

ALTER2EGO -to- MESTEMIA:

Next you will be arguing that the historians of the 20th century who wrote books about the "founding fathers" of the USA took a time machine back a few centuries and were eyewitnesses of these people.

All that's required of a historian is access to documentary records. What is it about that don't you get? Go back and read what I said about Flavius Josephus in this thread. He was a Jewish Pharisee--which gave him a position of power among the Jews and access to records of executed Jews. He was also the Roman Emperor's Advisor, which further gave him access to the death records of people that had been executed by the Romans.
.

Thousands and thousands killed by the Romans. Seems he spent little time or had little concern about Jesus. Why would he bother? If he thought Jesus was actually important maybe.

More likely he knew of the Christians and relied on what he heard. You assume these records existed and he could find them if he wanted to. Even if all that was true, why would he? Why spend any time verifying facts about someone he doesn't see as significant?

You are relying on an unverifiable assumption here. It's at least as reasonable to doubt your assumption as it is for you to make it.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

All I can say is:

1) Almost all extra-Christian sources that refer to Jesus aren't reliable

2) The single reference to Jesus in Josephus that focuses on James is the only historically reliable source

3) Get over yourself

4) Get over yourself

and finally

5) GET OVER YOURSELF

 

[McBell]

ALTER2EGO -to- MESTEMIA:

Next you will be arguing that the historians of the 20th century who wrote books about the "founding fathers" of the USA took a time machine back a few centuries and were eyewitnesses of these people.

All that's required of a historian is access to documentary records. What is it about that don't you get? Go back and read what I said about Flavius Josephus in this thread. He was a Jewish Pharisee--which gave him a position of power among the Jews and access to records of executed Jews. He was also the Roman Emperor's Advisor, which further gave him access to the death records of people that had been executed by the Romans.
.

Where are these "documentary records"?
Why not merely present them?

 

[Duck]

ALTER2EGO -to- EVERYONE:

Below are the names of NON-CHRISTIANS who were born in the First Century AD when Jesus lived and died. All of the non-Christians provided were (1) people in powerful positions, (2) they were born in the same century in which Jesus lived and died, (3) they had no sympathy for Christians, and (4) they had nothing to gain from mentioning CHRIST in their writings. Therefore, their mention of CHRIST in their writings is all the more credible.

PERSON #1:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Cornelius Tacitus, Roman Historian

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: A.D. 55 to A.D. 120

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Hostile

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that CHRISTUS (a common misspelling of Christ at the time) was executed by Pilate.

HIGHLIGHTS ON TACITUS: A Roman historian who lived through the reign of over a half-dozen Roman emperors, Tacitus has been called "the greatest historian of ancient Rome."


PERSON #2:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Flavius Josephus, Jewish Historian

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: 37 AD -- Died after 100 AD

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Apathetic (could care less about them)

WHAT HE SAID: He confirmed that Christ who performed miracles was executed by Pilate.

HIGHLIGHTS ON JOSEPHUS: A Jewish historian of priestly and royal ancestry who recorded Jewish history, with special emphasis on the 1st century AD (the century in which Jesus Christ lived and died). He has been credited by many as recording some of the earliest history of Jesus Christ outside of the gospels. Flavius Josephus belonged to the group of Jewish religious leaders--the Pharisees--responsible for Jesus' death.


PERSON #3:
NAME and OCCUPATION: Plimy The Younger (born Gaius Plinius Caecilius Secundus), Roman Governor

DOB to DATE OF DEATH: 61 AD to 112 AD

ATTITUDE TOWARDS CHRISTIANITY: Hostile. He executed Christians

WHAT HE SAID: Referred to Christ as a "god of the Christians."

HIGHLIGHTS ON JOSEPHUS: Plimy condemned Men, Women, and children to death if they refused to curse Christ and if they refused to deny they were Christians.

And this means what exactly to me?