Non Christians: if the Christian God is real...

[It Aint Necessarily So]

There’s so much that’s blatantly incorrect about your characterization of the Christian idea of God that, honestly, it makes me wanna blow a gasket.

Really? That's quite an emotional response from you, and a red flag for me.

I’ll say that there is such a thing as slander. There is such a thing as libel. To deliberately mischaracterize a person based upon misunderstood actions or intentions would be thus, right?

You do realize that we are discussing a fictional character, do you not? You can't slander Santa Claus.

You've clearly bought into the God-is-love trope, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Assembling the claims of Christianity for its deity while ignoring the brutality of this deity is not an honest approach to the problem. I'm sure that Ted Bundy's mother could do the same for her son - assemble the best things said about her boy, maybe for an obituary.

Sorry, but this deity is a repulsive character. Let's let Dawkins chime in. He read the same parts of the scriptures that I did, but that you apparently overlooked while whitewashing this monster:

"The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

 

[F1fan]

Absolutely not. That that is the only solution I could come to.

So you think there is evidence of some sort of God? What is your reasoning process that you decided a God exists? And could you be mistaken/

 

[F1fan]

I understand how most atheists feel about scripture quotes so I usually do not post them unless absolutely necessary to support a statement I made, but @EthanReilly is not an atheist. He is a believer, and I did not know how he felt about my quoting scriptures until he told me. Now I know.

He and I both believe in God but we have diametrically opposed beliefs about God and the afterlife.

Which illustrates how theists can be really, really sure they are correct, but someone has to be wrong.

 

[F1fan]

Hoping to dial in learning will never be the best choice. We are all Living our lessons in this multilevel classroom. Free choice is an important part of learning. If one was controlled through being dialed in, one would do the opposite just as soon as one acquired freedom,
just to Discover what one was missing. Is this really the best choice?

Control is one of the petty things mankind holds so dear. Does anyone like being controlled? Isn't the reaction fighting back? What would you be really teaching through control? Certainly, it would not teach the best choice.

What do you mean by "control"?

To my mind control is like if you are in prison and someone says you have to wake up at 7, you take your shower at 7:30, you get your breakfast at 8, etc.

Speed limits aren't control because you still have the freedom to drive 50 mph in a school zone.You might get a ticket for this poor judgment, but you weren't controlled. The 25 mph speed limit is set as a compromise for society to help the safety of children in school as they arrive and leave.

I say copy God.

Which God? Whose version of that God do you follow?

God places knowledge and truth all around us.

Who told you this? Why do you think it's true?

God grants freedom of choice.

Why do you think this is true, since no Gods are known to exist? Could it be you adopted an established religious view subconscious through your social experience and now you are mimicking what you learned from them?

This time-based causal world will return the results so that, in time, one will Discover for themselves what the Best choices really are.

Can you point to any objective approach and thinker that backs up this claim of yours? Do you know of any test in reality that backs you up?

Given enough lives, lessons, and learning along with our actions returning, we will all learn to Love Unconditionally. After all, isn't that what we all to return? Isn't that what brings the best results?

We have no data or fact that this actually happens.

We all want peace, happiness and to have it made, however, just being given these things prevents one from Discovering how to create these things for oneself and others.

This is demonstrably untrue given Putin wanted war and made war happen. Many humans want violence and war. It is the majority of citizens who have learned war and violence does not create a stable environment to live.

A very wise person told me when I was but a child that sometimes the roughest roads will end up with the best view.

That's just the hard knocks of life that some endure, and some learn from it. Many do not. They have maturity and psychological limitations, as not everyone is naturally wise nor inclined to learn lessons from mistakes. So your "glass is half full" is a good attitude, it doesn't actually describe all people.

God created this system and the more I come to Understand it all; the more I see that we are all walking the road which will lead to the best view for us all.

Given we critical thinkers see no evidence of any Gods, nor any knowledge from an authentic God to understand, what exactly are you referring to here? It's not facts. Are you just repeating religious ideas that you have decided are true?

All the secrets of the Universe stare us all in the face. Knowledge runs well beyond the mere surface. The view changes as the Understanding increases.

Thanks to science.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

How do you substantiate that?

I know we came by a very long process of evolutionary threads, not from young or old Earth creationism. I know that God did not create the Universe but forces of the multiverse did instead. That the sick aren't healed by prayers but through medical science. I know it is impossible for anyone to perform miracles, like Jesus physically rising into Heaven. As well, I know Heaven doesn't exist, and outside the atmosphere is just outer space.

Unfortunately, the more faith someone places on religion, the less they actually know about God. Of course, they might know more about their religion, but they fail to understand the larger picture that is at play.

 

[firedragon]

I know we came by a very long process of evolutionary threads, not from young or old Earth creationism.

How do you make that kind of knowledge claim? Even science does not make that kind of knowledge claim. DO you mean evolution only or even the abiogenesis as a process? You have knowledge of them? Wow. Thats against science to make such claim.

I know that God did not create the Universe but forces of the multiverse did instead.

How do you know that?

That the sick aren't healed by prayers but through medical science.

You don't know this. Just because we give medicine to the sick, and the get cured, one cannot just simply "know" everything and how it happens.

I know it is impossible for anyone to perform miracles, like Jesus physically rising into Heaven.

Jesus physically rising to heaven through the clouds was a textual variant. It didnt exist in earlier bibles. So you are basing this on hearsay.

As well, I know Heaven doesn't exist, and outside the atmosphere is just outer space.

I think you are making too many knowledge claims. So you are basically calling yourself God.

Unfortunately, the more faith someone places on religion, the less they actually know about God. Of course, they might know more about their religion, but they fail to understand the larger picture that is at play.

I think you are being more religious than the people who call themselves religious. You worship yourself.

I expected some evidence, not religious faith claims.

No point going forward mate. But thanks for giving me your source of knowledge.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

You worship yourself.

I worship change. And I understand change a lot better than the monotheists who have a complusion to quote scripture from books that were made hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.

I am a syntheist. Not an autotheist.

 

[firedragon]

I worship change. And I understand change a lot better than the monotheists who have a complusion to quote scripture from books that were made hundreds, if not thousands, of years ago.

I am a syntheist. Not an autotheist.

Doesnt answer anything. Thanks for showing what your method is, again.

Cheers.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If God and Jesus revealed them selves to me. I would have no reason to continue to use the the Bible as a resource.
I doubt much of the old testament is true, and I expect much of Jesus teachings in it have been garbled to fit with man's expectations.

It would be good to be able to start with a clean sheet.

Christianity would be in for a massive work over, and a new start.

 

[Trailblazer]

Which illustrates how theists can be really, really sure they are correct, but someone has to be wrong.

That is correct. Someone has to be wrong.

 

[Bird123]

What do you mean by "control"?

To my mind control is like if you are in prison and someone says you have to wake up at 7, you take your shower at 7:30, you get your breakfast at 8, etc.

Speed limits aren't control because you still have the freedom to drive 50 mph in a school zone.You might get a ticket for this poor judgment, but you weren't controlled. The 25 mph speed limit is set as a compromise for society to help the safety of children in school as they arrive and leave.


Which God? Whose version of that God do you follow?


Who told you this? Why do you think it's true?


Why do you think this is true, since no Gods are known to exist? Could it be you adopted an established religious view subconscious through your social experience and now you are mimicking what you learned from them?


Can you point to any objective approach and thinker that backs up this claim of yours? Do you know of any test in reality that backs you up?


We have no data or fact that this actually happens.


This is demonstrably untrue given Putin wanted war and made war happen. Many humans want violence and war. It is the majority of citizens who have learned war and violence does not create a stable environment to live.


That's just the hard knocks of life that some endure, and some learn from it. Many do not. They have maturity and psychological limitations, as not everyone is naturally wise nor inclined to learn lessons from mistakes. So your "glass is half full" is a good attitude, it doesn't actually describe all people.


Given we critical thinkers see no evidence of any Gods, nor any knowledge from an authentic God to understand, what exactly are you referring to here? It's not facts. Are you just repeating religious ideas that you have decided are true?


Thanks to science.

Which version of God do I follow???? There is only one God. Are you asking me which religion or set of beliefs I follow? I am not following. I have spent a lifetime Discovering what actually exists rather than merely following what others believe to be true.

Let me give you a bit of history. I was raised Christian. As I became an adult, I realized that so much about God and their beliefs simply did not add up. I started my journey of Discovery to Discovered what actually existed regardless of what that would be. I was even open to the possibility that God did not exist.

No one gave me the starting point, however I will point for you. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. When one understands God's actions, one comes to understand God.

God's actions can not be altered by those that write books that claim come from God. So much is said about God that simply is not true. It's a mistake to base God on all the holy books in the world because I haven't found any that really understands God at all.

It's important to have a wide open view to all possibilities. The base by which one should never fall below is that everything about God must add up. If it doesn't, it isn't God and you are wandering from the path.

Ebb and Flow of knowledge is a key tool in putting the pieces together. Example: If you are going to build a car, there are some things all cars must have: an engine, a way to steer, a way to stop, a place to sit or ride. You get the idea.

This is not a 15 minute journey. When one opens one door, it leads to more doors that can be opened. In time, the pieces come together and Understanding increases.

At reaching a certain point of understanding, you might actually get a visit from God. At this point God or what you have Discovered will no longer be a Belief. You must be ready or would simply be confused by the experience.

Do not discount God's capabilities or IQ. We are but mere ants. On the other hand, I think everyone is capable of this journey given enough time. Of course, I find few who actually want to find God. I have always been one who needed to know.

God hides nothing. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. I have always said that science will Discover God before Religions will. Why? Science is walking toward God and science corrects those pesky little errors along the way. It seems religion does not incorporate these qualities. It is a mistake indeed to think God can be placed in any book regardless of how and why a person wants that book to be the truth.

Just like all the physics add up, so will the people factor. The people factor is much more complex simply because there are so many more variables. Keep Math close for everything does add up.

Just like God, I make no demands at all. I simply point for those who need to take that journey or need to really know. Be who you must! It is a part of the plan!

Yes, indeed, Intelligence does exist far beyond that of mankind. We are all walking toward it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

 

[F1fan]

Which version of God do I follow???? There is only one God.

Well that's news to nearly a billion Hindus, they have hundreds of gods. And there are lists of gods that number over 4000, so it seems you are poorly informed.

Are you asking me which religion or set of beliefs I follow? I am not following. I have spent a lifetime Discovering what actually exists rather than merely following what others believe to be true.

Let me give you a bit of history. I was raised Christian. As I became an adult, I realized that so much about God and their beliefs simply did not add up. I started my journey of Discovery to Discovered what actually existed regardless of what that would be. I was even open to the possibility that God did not exist.

No one gave me the starting point, however I will point for you. In this time-based causal universe God's actions can be seen. When one understands God's actions, one comes to understand God.

And what can be understood in what you claim here that isn't overly loaded with religious assumptions? Nothing. Theists have beliefs about how things are, but these beliefs are built on assumptions that have no factual basis, nor are plausible. So what explains why you adopted all these assumptions that you presumes informs you about the universe?

God's actions can not be altered by those that write books that claim come from God. So much is said about God that simply is not true. It's a mistake to base God on all the holy books in the world because I haven't found any that really understands God at all.

Well no gods are known to exist, so what is there to know? Knowing what a religion claims is not knowing what is true about reality.

It's important to have a wide open view to all possibilities. The base by which one should never fall below is that everything about God must add up. If it doesn't, it isn't God and you are wandering from the path.

Possibilities are meaningless. They are just the mind imagining things. It doesn't inform a mind of anything.

Ebb and Flow of knowledge is a key tool in putting the pieces together. Example: If you are going to build a car, there are some things all cars must have: an engine, a way to steer, a way to stop, a place to sit or ride. You get the idea.

This is not a 15 minute journey. When one opens one door, it leads to more doors that can be opened. In time, the pieces come together and Understanding increases.

At reaching a certain point of understanding, you might actually get a visit from God. At this point God or what you have Discovered will no longer be a Belief. You must be ready or would simply be confused by the experience.

Do not discount God's capabilities or IQ. We are but mere ants. On the other hand, I think everyone is capable of this journey given enough time. Of course, I find few who actually want to find God. I have always been one who needed to know.

God hides nothing. All the secrets of the universe stare us all in the face. I have always said that science will Discover God before Religions will. Why? Science is walking toward God and science corrects those pesky little errors along the way. It seems religion does not incorporate these qualities. It is a mistake indeed to think God can be placed in any book regardless of how and why a person wants that book to be the truth.

Just like all the physics add up, so will the people factor. The people factor is much more complex simply because there are so many more variables. Keep Math close for everything does add up.

Just like God, I make no demands at all. I simply point for those who need to take that journey or need to really know. Be who you must! It is a part of the plan!

Yes, indeed, Intelligence does exist far beyond that of mankind. We are all walking toward it.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

You offer nothing here but fiction. You offer no coherent explanation based on facts. Are you unaware that you do this?

 

[Stonetree]

'To know' is to be aware of fact; 'to believe' is to accept an opinion or premise. imo

 

[Bird123]

Well that's news to nearly a billion Hindus, they have hundreds of gods. And there are lists of gods that number over 4000, so it seems you are poorly informed.


And what can be understood in what you claim here that isn't overly loaded with religious assumptions? Nothing. Theists have beliefs about how things are, but these beliefs are built on assumptions that have no factual basis, nor are plausible. So what explains why you adopted all these assumptions that you presumes informs you about the universe?


Well no gods are known to exist, so what is there to know? Knowing what a religion claims is not knowing what is true about reality.


Possibilities are meaningless. They are just the mind imagining things. It doesn't inform a mind of anything.


You offer nothing here but fiction. You offer no coherent explanation based on facts. Are you unaware that you do this?

You must realize I am not asking you to believe anything. I have placed real truth on your plate. What you do with truth is entirely up to you. Your journey and what you want to Discover are entirely up to you. You do not need to make excuses like I'm assuming or believing, God doesn't exist, or I'm like all the religions in the world. I make no demands or conditions on you in any way. Does that sound like your religions?

Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discovery. Your journey has always been your journey. It is not up to me nor will I give you all the answers.

God doesn't just give out all the answers. That is an action of God. I merely attempt to copy it. Perhaps, I should not even point the way. On the other hand, which direction to take that first step is the hardest.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. How are they doing? Religions reflect mankind more than any other thing. On the other hand, theists realize more exists beyond this physical world. This is something they can teach atheists. Atheists can teach theists that reality is much more than beliefs. Things must add up.

Has religion corrupted people's thinking? Even atheists rely on beliefs rather than Discovering the facts for themselves. Discovery takes much more work than believing. On the other hand, the results are so much better. Tightly hanging unto beliefs rather than being open to all possibilities leads the path away from truth. Truth will never always be an agreeable thing.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that!! So much is within one's reach, yet, just like you, come the excuses, conditions, and limits one places on oneself.

All the secrets of the universe, including God, stare us all in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? The knowledge was there all along waiting to be Discovered. What was said? If God wanted man to fly, God would have given man wings?? Does it get more narrow than that??


How much knowledge is mankind blind to see simply because of that narrow view? How much are you missing not only about God but about every subject in the world?

Will is 90% of everything. One must have the need or the will to Discover anything at all. Could this be a clue??

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! In time, Truth and the need to know will become important to everyone.


That's what I see. It's very clear!!

 

[F1fan]

You must realize I am not asking you to believe anything.

You should be if you are making credible claims that are factual and true. If you are only here to state your beliefs as if they are absolute truth, then you have a lot to learn about truth. You aren't a God. You're a fallible believer who believes in dubious concepts, and you are likely in error about them.

I have placed real truth on your plate.

False. You've made claims that you can't verify are true in reality.

What you do with truth is entirely up to you. Your journey and what you want to Discover are entirely up to you. You do not need to make excuses like I'm assuming or believing, God doesn't exist, or I'm like all the religions in the world. I make no demands or conditions on you in any way. Does that sound like your religions?

This illustrates the sort of blind arrogance many theists have. You seem to assume you have absolute truth but fail miserably to explain to rational minds how it is truth and absolute, and how you happen to know it without error. As I noted, you aren't a God. You are a fallible human who is prone to errors of judgment.

Wisdom is acquired on the journey to Discovery. Your journey has always been your journey. It is not up to me nor will I give you all the answers.

Your journey seem to be an empty vessel that you allowed to be filled with all sort of irrational religious concepts. Not very impressive. ISIS members are on a similar journey, just different dogma. Neither of you seem capable of seeing beyond what you believe is true. That is a serious liability in life.

God doesn't just give out all the answers. That is an action of God. I merely attempt to copy it. Perhaps, I should not even point the way. On the other hand, which direction to take that first step is the hardest.

Religion is mankind's attempt to understand God. How are they doing? Religions reflect mankind more than any other thing. On the other hand, theists realize more exists beyond this physical world. This is something they can teach atheists. Atheists can teach theists that reality is much more than beliefs. Things must add up.

Has religion corrupted people's thinking? Even atheists rely on beliefs rather than Discovering the facts for themselves. Discovery takes much more work than believing. On the other hand, the results are so much better. Tightly hanging unto beliefs rather than being open to all possibilities leads the path away from truth. Truth will never always be an agreeable thing.

The first thing God pointed out to me is that mankind carries such a narrow view. I cry that!! So much is within one's reach, yet, just like you, come the excuses, conditions, and limits one places on oneself.

All the secrets of the universe, including God, stare us all in the face. How long did mankind watch birds fly before they figured out how? The knowledge was there all along waiting to be Discovered. What was said? If God wanted man to fly, God would have given man wings?? Does it get more narrow than that??


How much knowledge is mankind blind to see simply because of that narrow view? How much are you missing not only about God but about every subject in the world?

Will is 90% of everything. One must have the need or the will to Discover anything at all. Could this be a clue??

Be who you must! It's a part of the plan! In time, Truth and the need to know will become important to everyone.


That's what I see. It's very clear!!

I have better clarity having knowledge about the psychology of belief. I understand why you ended up believing all this dogma that you wrote down, you likely have no idea. Dogma appeals to certain types of insecure minds, and the more insecure the mind is, the more gullible it is, and the more susceptible it is to suggestion and influence. It takes a lot of courage to resist the temptations of dogma onto the ego.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Really? That's quite an emotional response from you, and a red flag for me.

You do realize that we are discussing a fictional character, do you not? You can't slander Santa Claus.

You've clearly bought into the God-is-love trope, but the evidence suggests otherwise. Assembling the claims of Christianity for its deity while ignoring the brutality of this deity is not an honest approach to the problem. I'm sure that Ted Bundy's mother could do the same for her son - assemble the best things said about her boy, maybe for an obituary.

Sorry, but this deity is a repulsive character. Let's let Dawkins chime in. He read the same parts of the scriptures that I did, but that you apparently overlooked while whitewashing this monster:

"The god of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

I wish I could give your post more than one winner rating. Well done!

 

[Trailblazer]

I wish I could give your post more than one winner rating. Well done!

Indeed, scripture says God is loving but evidence suggests otherwise.

 

[Bird123]

You should be if you are making credible claims that are factual and true. If you are only here to state your beliefs as if they are absolute truth, then you have a lot to learn about truth. You aren't a God. You're a fallible believer who believes in dubious concepts, and you are likely in error about them.


False. You've made claims that you can't verify are true in reality.


This illustrates the sort of blind arrogance many theists have. You seem to assume you have absolute truth but fail miserably to explain to rational minds how it is truth and absolute, and how you happen to know it without error. As I noted, you aren't a God. You are a fallible human who is prone to errors of judgment.


Your journey seem to be an empty vessel that you allowed to be filled with all sort of irrational religious concepts. Not very impressive. ISIS members are on a similar journey, just different dogma. Neither of you seem capable of seeing beyond what you believe is true. That is a serious liability in life.


I have better clarity having knowledge about the psychology of belief. I understand why you ended up believing all this dogma that you wrote down, you likely have no idea. Dogma appeals to certain types of insecure minds, and the more insecure the mind is, the more gullible it is, and the more susceptible it is to suggestion and influence. It takes a lot of courage to resist the temptations of dogma onto the ego.

Religion has corrupted your thinking. You want beliefs served up so you can decide whether to accept or reject them. I am not serving up beliefs. I am pointing to where you can Discover the truth for yourself. Burden of proof rests on the one who Seeks the knowledge. Clearly, you do not seek.

You hold so tightly to your beliefs. You are not open to all the possibilities. Truth is not what you are after. If you were, you would seek truth rather than accept beliefs as you do.

Once again, I make no demands. Just like the birds in the world demonstrates the knowledge of flight, the truth sits before you. It stares you in the face, yet even the concept of what I have said escapes you. Clearly, you are not ready.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!