Non-Christians. Why do you care so much about Christians and Christianity?

[Kenny]

I have no beef with dentists, though I would if they tried to get their practices to be declared charities.

There's nothing wrong with self-interest. Just don't make it out to be something it's not, and don't ask me to pay for your hobbies.

Sounds like double standard to me.

And no one is asking you to pay for someone's hobbies

Out of curiosity, If someone paid for being in the ministry, should the ask your permission to have a hobby?

 

[Kenny]

I think you missed the part where I said that Compassion International looks okay, as well as the links I posted.

The World Vision story was told to me in person, but a quick Googling will show you the criticism of their practices.

And in any case, we're still talking about a balance between good and bad. You've listed off some things that you think are good about Christianity, but we'll need to consider it against the bad before we can establish whether Christianity is a net positive or negative.

Edit: on one side, we have Compassion International; on the other side, we have places like Mount Cashel. Has the net impact of Christianity on orphans been positive or negative? I'm not sure.

And it appears that overall people believe that Christians have a net positive impact.

I'm sure you can find where Christians have done wrong--you can google it and find it. But when was the last time you counted how many orphanages have done good? I have two personal friends who have multiple orphanages in multiple countries and doing just fine, thank you for asking.

 

[arthra]

So much so that you spend hours here debating and arguing with them post after post after pos(And yes, I realize that I do it myself and that people might expect my answer, but rather than possibly influencing the answers of others I'm going to wait with mine. )

.

I

As a non-Christian I don't spend hours debating with Christians... I do accept Jesus as a Manifestation of God and believe the Bible is inspired and I don't mind working on common causes with them in my community.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

I can only trust it's true, I haven't read those post but... so?

Then it doesn't matter to you. Just say that and be done with it. I, personally, find it quite telling.

That isn't what I said. Are you changing the subject?

Granted, you didn't equate my non-belief with pride - you were only accusing me of pride based on what you perceived was my being haughty when discussing others supposed failures. Sorry about the knee-jerk reaction - this is another one of those things that is brought up quite often in arguments with believers - an attempt at shaming the opponent into submission or something, I'm not quite sure the tactic's ultimate hoped-for outcome.

Did you help them? Did you hear the whole story?

I had helped them in the past - giving them just under $1,000 for car repairs when they were in need - so they already felt beholden to me in a certain respect, and being respectable people themselves, never would have asked me for more help beyond that without having achieved some form of recompense to me - which I respect, and can understand.

I did not seek the side of the pastor, if that is what you are asking. To be honest, the man was not someone I respected at all, based on a fair number of encounters with him. Let's just say he would have made a very good salesman, in my opinion, and many times seemed bitter that He wasn't being "blessed" more often. He once gave a sermon in which he appeared very irritated, and was trying to skirt his way around blatantly stating that people weren't giving enough money to the cause of their trying to build a new church building. I couldn't help but inwardly shake my head - and think to myself that this is what his congregation gets for having thrown their hand in with his.

The picture you were painting was how great you were.

I see, so one has to feel oneself great, or literally be great before they are allowed to recognize failure in others? Interesting... I'll have to remember that. Is this a "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" sort of thing? Because, I can tell you, that sentiment is nice on the outside, but can have consequences that are not so nice. For instance, I was once trying to argue the unethical nature of factory farming, and the treatment of the animals... and what I got back from many were completely unrelated statements about how I, myself, was still causing issues - still "sinning" - whether that be because I don't actively help homeless veterans (the statement made was something like "Don't you think we ought to help homeless vets first?", or that many of my purchases were probably of products manufactured in whole or part from China, where they don't have the best working conditions. So, you see, calling out my "sins" in completely separate arenas of life were being used to discredit my statement about the mistreatment of animals. Being used as a diversionary tactic. "Stop casting stones!" was the message - because those people felt their consumption of meat being challenged, and that I was assuming their "sins" - but the principle was being used dishonestly - to merely detract from an otherwise valid point, and attempt to dissuade others from even listening.

But this, which is what we are talking about, is trash talk no matter how you want to paint it or slice it.

Agreed. And why not point out trash when it is sitting in your community? Why not inform people that it is sitting there, and start a discussion that maybe something should be done about it?

 

[Riders]

And it appears that overall people believe that Christians have a net positive impact.

I'm sure you can find where Christians have done wrong--you can google it and find it. But when was the last time you counted how many orphanages have done good? I have two personal friends who have multiple orphanages in multiple countries and doing just fine, thank you for asking.

I don't believe that others outside of Christianity believe Christian have a net positive impact.

 

[Lucifer_]

So much so that you spend hours here debating and arguing with them post after post after post.

(And yes, I realize that I do it myself and that people might expect my answer, but rather than possibly influencing the answers of others I'm going to wait with mine. )

.

The same reasom I care about Islam and conservativism and any other evil under the sun. Christianity is hindering stem cell research, reproductive rights, and the fight for equality. Until Christianity stops budding its nose in our affairs, I'll care a great deal.

 

[Riders]

I rest my case.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And it appears that overall people believe that Christians have a net positive impact.

We're talking about Christianity, not Christians. People have a net positive impact in general. We're talking about the influence of the Christian religion specifically.

I'm sure you can find where Christians have done wrong--you can google it and find it.

Not just wrong; horrible wrong in the name of God.

But when was the last time you counted how many orphanages have done good? I have two personal friends who have multiple orphanages in multiple countries and doing just fine, thank you for asking.

And what's driving the need for these orphanages your friends run?

Is it the wars in the Congo and South Sudan that are being driven by the Lord's Resistance Army, a Christian terrorist group?

Are they AIDS orphans in South Africa or Zimbabwe, where Christian lobbyists have fought hard against contraception and proper sex ed that would have reduced the scale of the impact of HIV and AIDS?

Are the orphanages in Haiti, where the country is still dealing with socio-economic problems from centuries of Christian slavery?

If your friends are helping people, that's great, but if they're just undoing harm that your religion caused in the first place, then they don't really help to justify your claim that your religion is a net force for good.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I rest my case.

You do make a very good point. Sure, there have been charities and orphanages, and other good things Christians have done. There has also been Crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts, lynch mobs, and politicians who today are serious threats to LBGT rights, the chances of homeless children being adopted, and here in America where ever you find someone fighting for bigotry and discrimination as a right, you have a Christian fighting for bigotry and discrimination as a right just because, they believe, it's what their religion tells them.
Basically, in my mind there are two types of Christian. The first group, a minority of them, are genuinely good people - these are generally the ones who are talking more about Jesus and less about the OT and Paul. And then there are the rest of them, and there are indeed many groups who can legitimately claim that these Christians are a thorn in their side. Whether they be atheist, or someone concerned about getting real medical information to teens about sex, homosexuals, or even another Christian denomination, these Christians are the reason why I've seen some Christians quit using the term Christian to describe themselves and instead use something like "follower of Christ." That's how bad these Christians are.

 

[Kenny]

I don't believe that others outside of Christianity believe Christian have a net positive impact.

Your belief and actual experience are two different things.

 

[Kenny]

You do make a very good point. Sure, there have been charities and orphanages, and other good things Christians have done. There has also been Crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts, lynch mobs, and politicians who today are serious threats to LBGT rights, the chances of homeless children being adopted, and here in America where ever you find someone fighting for bigotry and discrimination as a right, you have a Christian fighting for bigotry and discrimination as a right just because, they believe, it's what their religion tells them.
Basically, in my mind there are two types of Christian. The first group, a minority of them, are genuinely good people - these are generally the ones who are talking more about Jesus and less about the OT and Paul. And then there are the rest of them, and there are indeed many groups who can legitimately claim that these Christians are a thorn in their side. Whether they be atheist, or someone concerned about getting real medical information to teens about sex, homosexuals, or even another Christian denomination, these Christians are the reason why I've seen some Christians quit using the term Christian to describe themselves and instead use something like "follower of Christ." That's how bad these Christians are.

WOW!! In my mind there are two types of non-Christians. The minority, who are generally good people... and then there are the rest of them.

Doesn't that sound different when you just switch the categories? That is bias on steroids.

 

[Kenny]

We're talking about Christianity, not Christians. People have a net positive impact in general. We're talking about the influence of the Christian religion specifically.

Which is a personal viewpoint. I would say that it ha a net positive impact and you would say it doesn't.

Not just wrong; horrible wrong in the name of God.

As am I sure that I can find the same in the name of yours.

And what's driving the need for these orphanages your friends run?

Love.

Every donated penny goes to adoption costs and their personal donations pay for every administrative cost.

Is it the wars in the Congo and South Sudan that are being driven by the Lord's Resistance Army, a Christian terrorist group?

Hasty generalization fallacy.

Are they AIDS orphans in South Africa or Zimbabwe, where Christian lobbyists have fought hard against contraception and proper sex ed that would have reduced the scale of the impact of HIV and AIDS?

Saddleback Church: Search
One of many.

Are the orphanages in Haiti, where the country is still dealing with socio-economic problems from centuries of Christian slavery?

You are too funny....

How many people have been murdered by atheists?

How many Christians stood against slavery and stood side by side with Martin Luther King?

How many Christian organizations are in Haiti helping the people today?

did you bother to google Christian orphanages Haiti?

If your friends are helping people, that's great, but if they're just undoing harm that your religion caused in the first place, then they don't really help to justify your claim that your religion is a net force for good.

Riiiiiiiiiight!!!!

What are you doing to make up for the millions killed by atheists?

You haven't built a case. But keep trying

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Which is a personal viewpoint. I would say that it ha a net positive impact and you would say it doesn't.

Which is why we're looking at the facts.

As am I sure that I can find the same in the name of yours.

That would be hard, since I don't have a religion.

Love.

Every donated penny goes to adoption costs and their personal donations pay for every administrative cost.

Not what I was asking. I'll rephrase: what caused these children to be orphans in the first place?

Hasty generalization fallacy.

Not a generalization; examples. They don't represent all of Christianity, but they're part of the mix.

Saddleback Church: Search
One of many.

So that's a yes?

Pastor Rick Warren Still Hasn’t Owned Up To His Role In Creating Anti-Gay Climate In Uganda | Truth Wins Out

You are too funny....

How many people have been murdered by atheists?

If we're going to take this approach, are you going to answer for the atrocities of all theists?

There are many sorts of atheist. For instance, I'm a freethinking secular humanist. How many people have been murdered in the name of that?

How many Christians stood against slavery and stood side by side with Martin Luther King?

About the same number as the Christians who stood in opposition to Martin Luther King.

As for abolitionism, that's one of those cases I was referring to of undoing the harm your religion caused in the first place.

Western slavery was defended from its beginnings with Christian ideas. The fight to abolish it was against other Christians. If it weren't for Christianity, there wouldn't have been slaves to free.

How many Christian organizations are in Haiti helping the people today?

did you bother to google Christian orphanages Haiti?

Again: they're undoing harm inflicted by Christianity in the first place.

Riiiiiiiiiight!!!!

What are you doing to make up for the millions killed by atheists?

About as much as you're doing to make up for killings by other theists whose beliefs you don't share, I'd bet.

You haven't built a case. But keep trying

If you'll recall, you're the one who made the initial claim that Christianity has been a net good. I responded with "debatable"; the fact that we're still debating the question suggests that I was right.

 

[Riders]

Your belief and actual experience are two different things.

How would you know? Ken I have had bad experiences and good experiences with christians. But most people would agree that most religions have had a good impact. But then again why am I and you sitting here blanktly speaking for all people.

I have very good experiences very bad bad experiences with Christians but that's not relevant here because I believe its true of all religions.
But the point is not weather Christian have done good things or not. That's not the point. The point of the thread is that
you think Christians are persecuted or picked on up here which to me is a sign that you don't know the difference between fantasy and reality. All religions are debated up here and Christian don't have
a special consideration that makes them immune to debate.


Tough. It's a debate room this is what goes on. I've also confronted Scientology this up here this year, I've also confronted Scientologists and even Pagans recently and actually I have another thread I'm putting up soon,for another group.

Yes I've had good experiences with Christians as well as bad. When I was 28 I was going to beauty school living with my parents and had mental health issues.

 

[Riders]

Then my parents were fighting a lot I was fighting with my school.I ran away with all the pressure on me. I walked out of school and walked down the freeway o Balch Springs Tx. It started raining and low and behold I saw a truck stop. I should've gone in the store and called my parents but instead stupidly I walked up to a truck knowcked on the door the guy quickly got me in.

When I was 28 I weighed 240 pounds but I looked like I was 16 back then. Anyways he auctioned me off on the cb radio.I ended up 3 days on the road takig 15 to 20 bucks and food beer and place to sleep for sex. The last guy who took me was a Christian. He did pay me for sex however he wanted me to get out of the business, he was witnessing to me.

He gave me a phone number to call an Assembly Of God shelter in Withville Virginia. If he had not rescued me, I was so traumatized back then I probably would've stayed on the road, probably would've

been dead along time ago. SO theres a good dead good incident for you yes he saved my life. However I expect all religions to act in the same way. I expect religious men who are truck drivers on the road to say no to lot lizards and tell them to go get help that's good.


But I should be able to expect that from all religions you know.

 

[McBell]

I think this is a good example of the types of prejudice referred to by the OP.

those in glass houses should not throw stones.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Doesn't that sound different when you just switch the categories? That is bias on steroids.

Christians are the ones who attack me for having no religion, Christians are the ones saying my civil rights and liberties must yield and bow to religious-based discrimination, Christians are the ones telling me how wrong, bad, and messed up my life and life choices are, Christians are the ones who try to say I am inherently immoral, and it is Christians who keep telling me I need saved. Sure, lots of Christians don't and are exactly the opposite, but if someone is telling me that I have to approve of rape and murder, it's a Christian.
It's why my response to the OP is pretty much "Don't ask me why I'm obsessed with Christians, the better question is to go ask them why they are so obsessed with me." Me, I don't care about them, and couldn't care less about what they do. Except, that is, during the mentioned examples, and plenty more.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Basically, I leave them alone, why can't they leave me alone?

 

[Riders]

SHadow Wolf that's interesting that you bring that up. The fact that they try to tell you you've messed up your life.

It seems like Christians pray on Addiction use addiction to get people in but many times they even try to talk people who are living normal regular lives into saying they are messed up. Its almost if to say they have to get people who are mentally ill or messed up, that way they can get you to repent, in order to convert folks.

I think its quite disturbing.

That being said I am a recovering sex addict and over eater but am getting my life in order with a recovery group. Unfortunately a lot of Christians try to convert folks that way.

The fact that Christians have to be seedy and underhanded and some what scammy, using trickery by preying on the week, makes Christianity look pretty shady to me. Maybe that's one reason I do argue a lot with Christians I feel like I'm being scammed a lot when Christians witness to me.

Ive got my hernia surgery coming up next month, I got approved,I lost weight down to 295. Sense ill be walking around easier and be able to lose weight easier after the surgery wonder how Christians around may react to my healing without their Jesus.

 

[Riders]

SHadow Wolf that's interesting that you bring that up. The fact that they try to tell you you've messed up your life.

It seems like Christians pray on Addiction use addiction to get people in but many times they even try to talk people who are living normal regular lives into saying they are messed up. Its almost if to say they have to get people who are mentally ill or messed up, that way they can get you to repent, in order to convert folks.

I think its quite disturbing.

That being said I am a recovering sex addict and over eater but am getting my life in order with a recovery group. Unfortunately a lot of Christians try to convert folks that way.

The fact that Christians have to be seedy and underhanded and some what scammy, using trickery by preying on the week, makes Christianity look pretty shady to me. Maybe that's one reason I do argue a lot with Christians I feel like I'm being scammed a lot when Christians witness to me.

Ive got my hernia surgery coming up next month, I got approved,I lost weight down to 295. Sense ill be walking around easier and be able to lose weight easier after the surgery wonder how Christians around may react to my healing without their Jesus.