• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Non-life to life

Youtellme

Active Member
I was thinking about the expression "Non-life" and in particular with regards to Abiogenesis. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe this is expression is used when people talk about how the first life arose; it went from "non-life" to "life".

However, I thought perhaps another way of describing "non-life" is "dead". If something is not alive, it is dead. Obviously. And yet, at some point it went from being dead to alive.

So, I was wondering why it is that some regard the resurrection of Jesus to be unscientific, as nothing can come to life if it is dead, and yet that is sort of what is supposed to be what happened at the start...just a thought.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I was thinking about the expression "Non-life" and in particular with regards to Abiogenesis. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe this is expression is used when people talk about how the first life arose; it went from "non-life" to "life".

However, I thought perhaps another way of describing "non-life" is "dead". If something is not alive, it is dead. Obviously. And yet, at some point it went from being dead to alive.
Are rocks "dead"?

So, I was wondering why it is that some regard the resurrection of Jesus to be unscientific, as nothing can come to life if it is dead, and yet that is sort of what is supposed to be what happened at the start...just a thought.
The same reason why evolution doesn't claim that one day a fully formed human child sprang from the womb of an ape.
 

dyanaprajna2011

Dharmapala
As Falvlun pointed out, non-life doesn't necessarily mean dead. Non-life means something that has never been alive, while something that is dead means that it was alive at one time. It might seem like a small difference, but in actuality, it's huge.
 

Youtellme

Active Member
As Falvlun pointed out, non-life doesn't necessarily mean dead. Non-life means something that has never been alive, while something that is dead means that it was alive at one time. It might seem like a small difference, but in actuality, it's huge.

Fair point!
 

Man of Faith

Well-Known Member
I would say that Jesus was supposedly brought back to life by God and anything to do with God is non-scientific in today’s philosophy. Life from non-life supposedly happened naturally so that is scientific.

Let me recap:
Natural = scientific
God = non-scientific
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I would say that Jesus was supposedly brought back to life by God and anything to do with God is non-scientific in today’s philosophy. Life from non-life supposedly happened naturally so that is scientific.

Let me recap:
Natural = scientific
God = non-scientific

Well, if God did it, then it wouldn't be scientific. It would be a miracle, which by definition, is something which suspends the laws of nature.

It could've happened, sure. But that doesn't make it scientific.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The definition of life and death is very murky, especially when you start looking at viruses and other "life forms" that are in between. Is RNA alive? Is DNA alive? Is a cell alive? Parts of the cell? "Alive" could just mean organic and able to replicate, but organic just means a certain structure of "dead" things, and replicate is just a word for a process of recreating itself (which can happen in other non-organic forms of matter as well). This abiogenesis is mostly about how non-organic "dead" matter becomes organic matter (which we consider "alive").
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
The definition of life and death is very murky, especially when you start looking at viruses and other "life forms" that are in between. Is RNA alive? Is DNA alive? Is a cell alive? Parts of the cell? "Alive" could just mean organic and able to replicate, but organic just means a certain structure of "dead" things, and replicate is just a word for a process of recreating itself (which can happen in other non-organic forms of matter as well). This abiogenesis is mostly about how non-organic "dead" matter becomes organic matter (which we consider "alive").

Precisely. :thumbsup:
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I agree, when it comes to the evolution/creation debate, speculation, philosophy, and assumption are all good when scientific and bad when religious.

Oh, MoF... you should know better already by now.

Abiogenesis is indeed a speculation and therefore no better than a scientific hypothesis. It is not really scientific yet, although the evidence sure hints that way.

The Theory of Evolution is however a different if related matter, and it is been duly elevated to a full Theory with loads of quality evidence for well over a century now.
 

Youtellme

Active Member
Oh, MoF... you should know better already by now.

Abiogenesis is indeed a speculation and therefore no better than a scientific hypothesis. It is not really scientific yet, although the evidence sure hints that way.

The Theory of Evolution is however a different if related matter, and it is been duly elevated to a full Theory with loads of quality evidence for well over a century now.

So, as the theory of evolution is the study of life began and you don't know how life began in the first place, ie, the very first bit of evolution, is it fair to say it has no foundation? Just wondering.
 

McBell

Unbound
So, as the theory of evolution is the study of life began and you don't know how life began in the first place, ie, the very first bit of evolution, is it fair to say it has no foundation? Just wondering.
Since the theory of Evolution has absolutely nothing to say about how life began, you started out with a fail.

Then merely snowballed from there.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
So, as the theory of evolution is the study of life began

No, it is not. It is the study of how lifeforms adapt and diverge. It is certainly compatible with abiogenesis and may even hint towards it, but it is its own entity.


and you don't know how life began in the first place, ie, the very first bit of evolution, is it fair to say it has no foundation? Just wondering.

Why, of course not.

Even if the actual abiogenesis were a necessary part of the Theory of Evolution (which it is not) it would not negate the evidence that does exist. It would only be a part of it to deserve further investigation and a potentially falsifiable part that could lead to refinements or even refutation.
 

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
I was thinking about the expression "Non-life" and in particular with regards to Abiogenesis. I'm not 100% sure on this, but I believe this is expression is used when people talk about how the first life arose; it went from "non-life" to "life".

However, I thought perhaps another way of describing "non-life" is "dead". If something is not alive, it is dead. Obviously. And yet, at some point it went from being dead to alive.

So, I was wondering why it is that some regard the resurrection of Jesus to be unscientific, as nothing can come to life if it is dead, and yet that is sort of what is supposed to be what happened at the start...just a thought.

I think we need to be careful about these words and what it is we're describing. The emergence of life essentially hinged on the arrival of organic chemistry (hydrocarbons), which facilitated more complex molecules, enzymes and eventually life forms to develop. Life as a word is something we attribute to things that seem to self-preserve and have some inherent structure and signalling processes actively working. Dead is then framed with respects to life, namely the cessation of it.

So the dead returning to life is not actually the same as the emergence of life. They are different phenomenon and this is overlooked by your reduction of the evidence to a duality of ‘life:no-life’. As with all reductions like this, you’re going to lose information, and it’s in the detail you sacrifice that the answers lie.

Of course that’s not to say that it’s definitely impossible to return to life. For one the definition of death, what constitutes it and when the moment of death is can be sketchy. In medicine for example it’s based on certain measurable signs that if present together for a sustained period of time correlate heavily with death. (No central pulse, no breathing, dilated pupils etc). So one can pose the philosophical question of whether someone can ever come back from death, or whether it was just mistakenly labelled as death. (as evident by the return to life).

Additionally with Einstein’s relativity, there can be disagreement among observers as to the precise timing of events that happen in the universe, such as your death. Different observers may disagree as to the exact moment of it happening, and because time is not fixed, but is rather an aspect of spacetime, none of these observers are actually wrong.
 
Top