Non-Trinitarian Belief

[jimb]

I understand what you are saying; however, Jesus never discussed this, not did his apostles and Jesus taught the disciples for 3 years and before ascending, he told them that any words that speak other than what he is saying is from the devil. The trinity is a doctrine, instead of abiding in doctrines, if Christians really followed Jesus, they should follow his words and his words only. the trinity waas sold to us by the Roman Catholic Church which stemed from Pauls teachings who he was often in dispute with the apostles. Pauls epistels were brought forth by a man who was obsssed with Pauls teachings on raising the dead and brought his epistles to the Romans. Here we are 2000 years later doing far from what Jesus commanded. the trinity is by far not the worse lie to follow but one cant explain why no early christians followed it like the ebonites and nazerines, the ones who actually followed jesus. Follow Jesus, every other doctrine is a lie

Congratulations on bringing up many different points and having many misspellings.

I have read the Bible many, many times over the past 47 years (since I became a Christian) and I believe that it clearly indicates the thre--part Godhead: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Going by your logic, any words that aren't what Jesus Himself actually spoke means that almost the entire Bible -- God's word -- is from the devil. Clearly, there are very, very, very few people that believe that.

The concept of the Trinity was not "sold to us by the Romans Catholic church". The Bible says that there are three aspects of God: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Since that is what it says, that is what I believe. Some people have trouble understanding the concept, so they falsely claim that there is no such thing.

Are you really saying that the great Apostle Paul, who was personally chosen by Jesus and who wrote the majority of the "books" of the New Testament, didn't know what He was writing about? His writings have been considered part of the Bible for roughly 2,000 years by all of Christendom (except perhaps a few people like yourself).

How are we doing far from what Jesus commanded? Of course, nobody's behavior has been perfect, but most Christians accept His teachings (including the sermon on the mount, loving your neighbor, celebrating the New Covenant by drinking wine and eating bread, etc., etc.) and try to live by them.

Here is what Jesus Himself taught...

Luke 18:9-14, "He also told this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous and regarded others with contempt: “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee, standing by himself, was praying thus, ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give a tenth of all my income.’ But the tax collector, standing far off, would not even lift up his eyes to heaven but was beating his breast and saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’ I tell you, this man went down to his home justified rather than the other, for all who exalt themselves will be humbled, but all who humble themselves will be exalted.”

Matthew 7:1-5, “Do not judge, so that you may not be judged. For the judgment you give will be the judgment you get, and the measure you give will be the measure you get. Why do you see the speck in your neighbor’s eye but do not notice the log in your own eye? Or how can you say to your neighbor, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ while the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your neighbor’s eye."

I think that you should seriously consider your negative judgement of other Christians!

 

[jesussetsusfree]

I am saying apolstle paul is always on defense in the bible and against the apostles and contradicts himself throughout the bible. Paul gives us a different message on how to achieve salvation, eternal life than what Jesus did. the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light. This is what happened unto Paul on the road to Damascas. Paul got his story twisted in acts on who saw what and who heard what. Paul brags boasts and openly lies to us and admits us, yet were are called to stay away from these groups. I know it is a real shocker, after all i was engulfed in bible; however, after seeing so many differrences aand God already told us that he would never change his word, then someone is wrong. We knew Jesus was the messiah because of many reasons, he fulfilled old testament prophecy's on what the messiah would do. Throughout old testament and Jesus words spoken one was to come to steal his message and leave many astray.. Paul spoke of those words in which we were told and warned not to follow. I know its a realy shocker to think that 40000 different christian denominations all have it right to the narrow path here and narrow gate here. I learned alot about who to follow which is teaching for Jesus who came here and only spoke what the father told him to say. When you compare teachings of Paul and jesus its amazing to see how much they are against each other. Paul says foflow me and Jesus says follow me. We have a choice who if we stand on the rock or sandy soil. Jesus says few will enter. Listen to him, Paul gives far commands never mentioned by any past prophet or Jesus. Paul says in Galatians 1 11-12 that jesus came to him privately to let loose a new gospal unknown and untaught by man. However, Jesus told disciples before ascending that anyone who comes with a different message is from the devil. Choose wisely... I know its a shocker. but Jesus's words will be coming back to the church. 212 billion dollar industry is due to paul saying to make a prophet off of gods words, yet jesus commanded us not to see financial gain off God's words. Blind eyes and deaf ears running rampant time for true believers to wake up and follow the judge

 

[jimb]

I am saying apolstle paul is always on defense in the bible and against the apostles and contradicts himself throughout the bible. Paul gives us a different message on how to achieve salvation, eternal life than what Jesus did. the devil will disguise himself as an angel of light. This is what happened unto Paul on the road to Damascas. Paul got his story twisted in acts on who saw what and who heard what. Paul brags boasts and openly lies to us and admits us, yet were are called to stay away from these groups. I know it is a real shocker, after all i was engulfed in bible; however, after seeing so many differrences aand God already told us that he would never change his word, then someone is wrong. We knew Jesus was the messiah because of many reasons, he fulfilled old testament prophecy's on what the messiah would do. Throughout old testament and Jesus words spoken one was to come to steal his message and leave many astray.. Paul spoke of those words in which we were told and warned not to follow. I know its a realy shocker to think that 40000 different christian denominations all have it right to the narrow path here and narrow gate here. I learned alot about who to follow which is teaching for Jesus who came here and only spoke what the father told him to say. When you compare teachings of Paul and jesus its amazing to see how much they are against each other. Paul says foflow me and Jesus says follow me. We have a choice who if we stand on the rock or sandy soil. Jesus says few will enter. Listen to him, Paul gives far commands never mentioned by any past prophet or Jesus. Paul says in Galatians 1 11-12 that jesus came to him privately to let loose a new gospal unknown and untaught by man. However, Jesus told disciples before ascending that anyone who comes with a different message is from the devil. Choose wisely... I know its a shocker. but Jesus's words will be coming back to the church. 212 billion dollar industry is due to paul saying to make a prophet off of gods words, yet jesus commanded us not to see financial gain off God's words. Blind eyes and deaf ears running rampant time for true believers to wake up and follow the judge

Except Paul was an apostle. And when he went to Jerusalem "James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised." (Galatians 2:9) So, the apostles chosen by Jesus Himself recognized the grace that had been given to Paul [by God].

If they approved of Paul and his doctrine and mission, obviously you need to read the Bible more carefully!

Secondly, if Jesus personally selected Paul (on the way to Damascus (not Damascas -- there is no such place)), clearly He did not disapprove of him. So when you write that "Paul brags boasts and openly lies to us" you clearly disagree with Jesus Christ, God's Son and the Savior. IMHO, you have not learned a lot about whom to follow.

And you need to read Galatians more carefully! If you do, you will read that Paul wrote this : "I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ." Galatians 1:11-12 So, what you are saying about Paul is blatantly untrue!

Finally, Paul never made "a prophet".

It is time for believers, including yourself, to wake up to the truth, expressed by God in the Bible!

 

[jesussetsusfree]

Your eyes will open. You along with many followers of Jesus refuse to listen to his gospal that he gave in the flesh which is not Paul's ministry. If you were a morman you would hear the same story in which the morman leader Joseph was surrounded by Light and jesus spoke to him. This is what happened with paul. Few will find the narrow path which his is teaching only in the flesh. Even when he rose and walked with the disciples. for 40 days, he never added anything new. I understand you are fooled and you do not. Paul was exposed which you have not even asked me of yet, and when you know this, you wont be able to respond, because many christians can't. We were warned of one who would change gods words and add and omit it. YOu cant follow paul and jesus at the same time, you have a choice. Follow paul and be lead aborad or stay on the narrow path is what jesus said. Paul will not be judging with jesus and the 12 apostles will. Paul is not the 13th apostle. Mathias was the 12th. Paul gave his own name and reread acts and see if you can find how many times paul changes his story. This may open our eyes for the true followers and truth seekers. Time to wake up and believe in the bible and who jesus told us to follow, including yourself. Blind eyes no more. Contiue to seek the truth and it will set you free. I don't get on here much, but will respond in week or so. Please reread acts, and see where paul fubs his story. If not, i will have to help you. the movement on paul is growing and his abominations that he put forth on the messiah's words.

 

[jimb]

Your eyes will open. You along with many followers of Jesus refuse to listen to his gospal that he gave in the flesh which is not Paul's ministry. If you were a morman you would hear the same story in which the morman leader Joseph was surrounded by Light and jesus spoke to him. This is what happened with paul. Few will find the narrow path which his is teaching only in the flesh. Even when he rose and walked with the disciples. for 40 days, he never added anything new. I understand you are fooled and you do not. Paul was exposed which you have not even asked me of yet, and when you know this, you wont be able to respond, because many christians can't. We were warned of one who would change gods words and add and omit it. YOu cant follow paul and jesus at the same time, you have a choice. Follow paul and be lead aborad or stay on the narrow path is what jesus said. Paul will not be judging with jesus and the 12 apostles will. Paul is not the 13th apostle. Mathias was the 12th. Paul gave his own name and reread acts and see if you can find how many times paul changes his story. This may open our eyes for the true followers and truth seekers. Time to wake up and believe in the bible and who jesus told us to follow, including yourself. Blind eyes no more. Contiue to seek the truth and it will set you free. I don't get on here much, but will respond in week or so. Please reread acts, and see where paul fubs his story. If not, i will have to help you. the movement on paul is growing and his abominations that he put forth on the messiah's words.

We agree on one thing only: Time to wake up and believe in the bible. You need to read it more carefully and accept what it clearly says.

Jesus directly commissioned Paul (a.k.a, Saul). Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the people of Israel."

"For several days he was with the disciples in Damascus, and immediately he began to proclaim Jesus in the synagogues, saying, “This man is the Son of God.” All who heard him were amazed and were saying, “Is this not the man who in Jerusalem was ravaging[ those who call on this name, and who had come here to bring them as prisoners to the chief priests?” But Saul became more and more capable, and was causing consternation among the Jews who lived in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Christ." Acts 9:19b-22

Get rid of your spiritual blindness and accept what the Bible clearly says about Saul/Paul.

 

[Coder]

I believe:

Acts 9:15, "But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument to carry my name before Gentiles and kings and the people of Israel."

(1 Corinthians 9:22) Yes, Paul had the "all things to all peoples" approach to work with the polytheists (gentiles, i.e. non-Jews). The Jewish followers of Jesus probably didn't.

(Paul may have been an original follower of Jesus who considered that in order for the Jewish reformation movement to survive, as tensions with fellow Jewish people increased, that the followers of Jesus would need to work with non-Jews. Or maybe "Jesus" was even a "follower" of Paul. Paul seems to understand the "spirit of the law" concepts that Jesus is depicted as teaching about. Perhaps Paul's concepts were later added as teachings by the "messiah" in the later books of the Bible.)

Paul, as a gifted believer in God and a highly educated person, probably thought that the practice of body mutilation (circumcision) in Judaism, and animal sacrifices in both Judaism and polytheism were immature, ridiculous, and obsolete. (Circumcision, like other "spirit of the law" concepts, may be fine for health and medical reasons, but not spiritual reasons in a direct sense). In that regard, Paul probably viewed these practices of uneducated Jews and polytheists in a similar light. He took over in a "management" role. He even called people "foolish" in his letters e.g. Galatians. So, the movement started by the followers of Jesus was a vehicle to advance religious practice and end animal sacrifices.

Paul was good at it, and he wrote many letters that reduced importance of some Jewish laws while also appealing to the sacrificial polytheistic religions of Rome by connecting the Jewish messiah concept with the Roman sacrificial concept. Jewish followers of Jesus could also connect with this, the apostles had continued to offer animal sacrifices.

It certainly worked. In both Judaism and Greco-Roman polytheism, the practice of animal sacrifices has largely come to an end. That's a good thing IMO. But I also think that "fibs" were told in the process.

Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
Note "Romans", note "lie"
If they believe it's a valid work of God, then they can justify the "fibs" and they write a story that "...the Lord said to him...". Anyone can write that if they are trying to give credence to a story. Many certainly accepted it, and apparently many still do today. Or maybe they didn't have a choice but to "believe" it; so-called heretics were punished:

Early Roman Christianity:
"...the first Christian heretic, Priscillian, was executed in 385 by Roman officials."

Heresy in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe in God and I believe that we can see the truth of God better by seeing past the "fibs"/"parables"
Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
So, the "lies" (parables) are supposedly a "justified" means to lead people to the truth about the one true God. Oh well, the parables and lies have already been used, so the best thing for people to do now, is worship God, not the lies/parables themselves.

 

[jimb]

I believe:


(1 Corinthians 9:22) Yes, Paul had the "all things to all peoples" approach to work with the polytheists (gentiles, i.e. non-Jews). The Jewish followers of Jesus probably didn't.

(Paul may have been an original follower of Jesus who considered that in order for the Jewish reformation movement to survive, as tensions with fellow Jewish people increased, that the followers of Jesus would need to work with non-Jews. Or maybe "Jesus" was even a "follower" of Paul. Paul seems to understand the "spirit of the law" concepts that Jesus is depicted as teaching about. Perhaps Paul's concepts were later added as teachings by the "messiah" in the later books of the Bible.)

Paul, as a gifted believer in God and a highly educated person, probably thought that the practice of body mutilation (circumcision) in Judaism, and animal sacrifices in both Judaism and polytheism were immature, ridiculous, and obsolete. (Circumcision, like other "spirit of the law" concepts, may be fine for health and medical reasons, but not spiritual reasons in a direct sense). In that regard, Paul probably viewed these practices of uneducated Jews and polytheists in a similar light. He took over in a "management" role. He even called people "foolish" in his letters e.g. Galatians. So, the movement started by the followers of Jesus was a vehicle to advance religious practice and end animal sacrifices.

Paul was good at it, and he wrote many letters that reduced importance of some Jewish laws while also appealing to the sacrificial polytheistic religions of Rome by connecting the Jewish messiah concept with the Roman sacrificial concept. Jewish followers of Jesus could also connect with this, the apostles had continued to offer animal sacrifices.

It certainly worked. In both Judaism and Greco-Roman polytheism, the practice of animal sacrifices has largely come to an end. That's a good thing IMO. But I also think that "fibs" were told in the process.

Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
Note "Romans", note "lie"
If they believe it's a valid work of God, then they can justify the "fibs" and they write a story that "...the Lord said to him...". Anyone can write that if they are trying to give credence to a story. Many certainly accepted it, and apparently many still do today. Or maybe they didn't have a choice but to "believe" it; so-called heretics were punished:

Early Roman Christianity:
"...the first Christian heretic, Priscillian, was executed in 385 by Roman officials."

Heresy in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe in God and I believe that we can see the truth of God better by seeing past the "fibs"/"parables"
Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
So, the "lies" (parables) are supposedly a "justified" means to lead people to the truth about the one true God. Oh well, the parables and lies have already been used, so the best thing for people to do now, is worship God, not the lies/parables themselves.

You seem very confused! Parables are not fibs. If they are, then Jesus was a liar! Clearly, that is beyond nonsense.

If the words of Jesus confuse you, then what He said is true in your case.

Matthew 13:10-15 (with my emphases): "Then the disciples came to him and said, “Why do you speak to them in parables?” He replied, “You have been given the opportunity to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but they have not. For whoever has will be given more, and will have an abundance. But whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. For this reason I speak to them in parables: Although they see they [you] do not see, and although they [you] hear they do not hear nor do they [you] understand. And concerning them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

‘You will listen carefully yet will never understand,
you will look closely yet will never comprehend.
For the heart of this people has become dull;
they are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes,
so that they would not see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their hearts
and turn, and I would heal them.'

 

[Michael Junior]

I think that anti-Trinitarianism is flawed theology. But anyway, I wanted to point out that one notable, non-Trinitarian Christian is Issac Newton. I whole-heartedly recommend this particular biography of Newton that discusses this particular aspect of his life in some detail:

Priest of Nature - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Michael Junior]

I believe:


(1 Corinthians 9:22) Yes, Paul had the "all things to all peoples" approach to work with the polytheists (gentiles, i.e. non-Jews). The Jewish followers of Jesus probably didn't.

(Paul may have been an original follower of Jesus who considered that in order for the Jewish reformation movement to survive, as tensions with fellow Jewish people increased, that the followers of Jesus would need to work with non-Jews. Or maybe "Jesus" was even a "follower" of Paul. Paul seems to understand the "spirit of the law" concepts that Jesus is depicted as teaching about. Perhaps Paul's concepts were later added as teachings by the "messiah" in the later books of the Bible.)

Paul, as a gifted believer in God and a highly educated person, probably thought that the practice of body mutilation (circumcision) in Judaism, and animal sacrifices in both Judaism and polytheism were immature, ridiculous, and obsolete. (Circumcision, like other "spirit of the law" concepts, may be fine for health and medical reasons, but not spiritual reasons in a direct sense). In that regard, Paul probably viewed these practices of uneducated Jews and polytheists in a similar light. He took over in a "management" role. He even called people "foolish" in his letters e.g. Galatians. So, the movement started by the followers of Jesus was a vehicle to advance religious practice and end animal sacrifices.

Paul was good at it, and he wrote many letters that reduced importance of some Jewish laws while also appealing to the sacrificial polytheistic religions of Rome by connecting the Jewish messiah concept with the Roman sacrificial concept. Jewish followers of Jesus could also connect with this, the apostles had continued to offer animal sacrifices.

It certainly worked. In both Judaism and Greco-Roman polytheism, the practice of animal sacrifices has largely come to an end. That's a good thing IMO. But I also think that "fibs" were told in the process.

Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
Note "Romans", note "lie"
If they believe it's a valid work of God, then they can justify the "fibs" and they write a story that "...the Lord said to him...". Anyone can write that if they are trying to give credence to a story. Many certainly accepted it, and apparently many still do today. Or maybe they didn't have a choice but to "believe" it; so-called heretics were punished:

Early Roman Christianity:
"...the first Christian heretic, Priscillian, was executed in 385 by Roman officials."

Heresy in Christianity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I believe in God and I believe that we can see the truth of God better by seeing past the "fibs"/"parables"
Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
So, the "lies" (parables) are supposedly a "justified" means to lead people to the truth about the one true God. Oh well, the parables and lies have already been used, so the best thing for people to do now, is worship God, not the lies/parables themselves.

Trinity is biblical. jesus said he and father god are one.

 

[Coder]

I beleive:

Parables are not fibs.

Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."

If they are, then Jesus was a liar!

Simply many stories added that ascribe words to Jesus to support the theology of the new Roman religion. The theology was required to match the changes in practices that enabled unification of Jews and Greco-Roman polytheists. A major part of it was a new sacrifice that replaced Jewish and polytheist animal sacrifices. Animal sacrifices were ended. The Jewish temple and later the Greco-Roman polytheist temples were destroyed by the Romans.

 

[Coder]

I believe:

Trinity is biblical. jesus said he and father god are one.

The Bible has stories that were fabricated to support a pre-designed Roman-unifying theology that substitutes Greco-Roman human-like "gods" with a human-like "image" of the true God.
Romans 3:7 "...if through my lie God's truth abounds..."
I suggest read my many posts.