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Not sure if this is the right forum, but--maybe we can talk about Spinoza and his concept of God for a while

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Spinoza obviously must have thought about things. He came from a religious Jewish background. I can only guess that he did not believe the scriptures or interpretations of the Jews. Or Christians. Maybe Buddhists. I'm not sure what religious doctrines he had access to, since that was a few centuries back.
Unless someone here can offer something different about Spinoza, I get the idea that he did not believe in a God who cares. Or that has a purpose for mankind. I believe that God does have a purpose for mankind, which is why He sent his son to the earth.
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." I am pretty sure that neither Spinoza nor Einstein believed that. (John 3:16)

I'm uncertain his background, but I understand he was Jewish and Dutch I think. I'm fairly sure he was bible literate, and he obviously pursued the academic faithfully, even though his views were largely dismissed. I'm unclear about his view of God caring, but then we care as humans so it's not anything I would suggest he didn't believe. As for God sending his son through which we have life, well ... Father, son, holy spirit rings a bell on that notion for even us, who are products, produced from the substance that is God, whatever God consists of, which I'll personally suggest is everything. It is suggested, written rather that we are all God's children.
 
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metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
He came from a religious Jewish background. I can only guess that he did not believe the scriptures or interpretations of the Jews.

He believed that the observance of the 613 Commandments was good in the sense of teaching one to be disciplined in life choices.

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." I am pretty sure that neither Spinoza nor Einstein believed that. (John 3:16)

Correct, he didn't see Jesus that way, but what he did see and agree with was Jesus' emphasis on "love one another". And since that is the basis along with the love of God in Jesus' Two Commandments, ... :shrug:
 

Balthazzar

N. Germanic Descent
Would Spinoza do you think, possibly use mathematics as a source for his view? For example: If 0 equates to God (origin/source), the numbers that derive from it, both the positive and negative numerical values of, could be a self-contained entity that takes place inside the origin, which is to suggest that zero would equate to or symbolize God as that origin.

The substance of God could effectively be illustrated utilizing mathematics in relation to infinity, per Spinoza's understanding.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Hmm, as I figured out your answer, I laughed out loud after a few seconds of figuring what you "responded" to. And, I think therefore you made a good choice. :)

Ah yeah the thread title question. Apologies.

"maybe we can talk about Spinoza and his concept of God for a while".
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
He believed that the observance of the 613 Commandments was good in the sense of teaching one to be disciplined in life choices.



Correct, he didn't see Jesus that way, but what he did see and agree with was Jesus' emphasis on "love one another". And since that is the basis along with the love of God in Jesus' Two Commandments, ... :shrug:
It is impossible to love one another unless one follows Jesus' footsteps closely. And I mean closely. I could go back to Peter and the rock or small rock, but I'll leave it there for now about following Jesus' footsteps closely, as well as the very early (and I don't mean 3rd century) Christians. But thanks for your answer, I appreciate that, metis.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Ah yeah the thread title question. Apologies.

"maybe we can talk about Spinoza and his concept of God for a while".
Yes, for a while I guess, because that substance business is ... um ... too much for me. Me being the matter in my brain. Have a good one.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The substance of God could effectively be illustrated utilizing mathematics in relation to infinity, per Spinoza's understanding.

I don't remember Spinoza dealing with the concept of infinity, so I can't answer that. However, as far as I'm concerned, infinity should be part of the discussion.

BTW, I'm somewhat older than that. :oops:
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Would Spinoza do you think, possibly use mathematics as a source for his view? For example: If 0 equates to God (origin/source), the numbers that derive from it, both the positive and negative numerical values of, could be a self-contained entity that takes place inside the origin, which is to suggest that zero would equate to or symbolize God as that origin.

The substance of God could effectively be illustrated utilizing mathematics in relation to infinity, per Spinoza's understanding.
If Spinoza used mathematics as a source for his view, I'd say he'd be like my former friend who was so wayyyy outttt there that he had ideas so extreme and esoteric his mind had to be in outer space. Although not a mathematician. Now while I doubt Spinoza took mind-bending drugs, my friend became addicted to heroin and eventually died of an overdose, so the story goes. But he FOUNDED a crazy type religion (I can't think of a better word). I doubt Einstein took drugs, of the mind-altering type, but I don't know. :)
Mind-bending
Light-bending
Time=bending...lol ok enough for now. I think therefore I think some people are off the course.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I am a follower of Advaita (nondual=God and creation are not-two) Vedanta from teachers I most respect of the Hindu tradition. Spinoza from a different tradition seems to be saying the same thing:

Prof Muller in 3 Lectures on Vedanta Philosophy, page 123 writes,

Strange as this Vedanta philosophy must appear at first sight to most of us, you can hardly have failed to discover some striking similarities which it presents with the great systems of European philosophy. Thus the Brahman, as conceived in the Upanishads and defined by Sankara, is clearly the same as Spinoza’s 'Substantia'. Spinoza defines it as that which is in itself and is conceived by itself (in se est and per se concipitur). It is according to him infinite, indivisible, one, free and eternal, just as Sankara’s Brahman is called in the Upanishads ‘unborn, undecaying, undying, without parts, without action, tranquil, without fault or taint.’ But while with Spinoza this Substantia simply takes the place of God ,Sankara, when asked whether Brahman is God, would have to answer both Yes and No. No doubt, he defines Brahman as the omniscient and omnipotent cause of the origin, the permanence, and the disappearance of the world ; ' but as he distinguishes between a phenomenal and a real world, he distinguishes likewise between a phenomenal and a real God. This is a very important distinction. There is, he says, a lower and a higher Brahman. Even the lower one is adorned with the highest predicates which human language has to bestow; but the higher one is above all praise and all predicates ; even the highest which other religions have bestowed on the Deity are unworthy of Brahman. According to Sankara God, as conceived by the many, as an historical person, who some hundreds or some thousands of years ago created the world and remained its permanent ruler, is phenomenal only, that is to say, he is the real Brahman, but hidden behind the veil of human Nescience or Avidya.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't at all even get close to agreeing with that as one can also see some similar teachings in the Eastern religions as well.



You're welcome, YT.
Thank you, metis. Here's the thing: Jesus had followers in the first century. He gave up his life for others. Did he encourage his disciples to fight for him? (No.) Did he encourage his followers to stand up for what they thought was righteous in obedience to their governments once they dispersed? Acts 5 NIV when the apostles were brought before the Jewish high court:
:
27The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28“We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.”

29Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! 30The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead—whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am a follower of Advaita (nondual=God and creation are not-two) Vedanta from teachers I most respect of the Hindu tradition. Spinoza from a different tradition seems to be saying the same thing:

Prof Muller in 3 Lectures on Vedanta Philosophy, page 123 writes,
Likely he did say something similar to Hindu teachings, they sure weren't from the Bible. And I believe in and follow Jesus to the best of my ability. (Not Spinoza or his view of substance-god type thing) But thanks for your answer also.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't at all even get close to agreeing with that as one can also see some similar teachings in the Eastern religions as well.



You're welcome, YT.
what similar teachings are you referring to?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I don't remember Spinoza dealing with the concept of infinity, so I can't answer that. However, as far as I'm concerned, infinity should be part of the discussion.

BTW, I'm somewhat older than that. :oops:
oh pardon me. Are you saying you're older than infinity? lol, I think therefore I hope that's not what you're saying in any shape, form, or substance. At least not a substance that thinks.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I've never read Spinoza, but if substance defines God and God is all substances that exist, then God is all. If God is all, then God exists within himself, and conceives what exist inside. As a Christian, albeit an odd one, I can mostly agree with his stance. I have wondered if we experience ourselves in like manner. What we conceive existing on the outside derives from who we are, specifically attuned to our central nervous system. If God exists as the substance of everything, then we exist inside that substance as that substance and perceive that substance as ourselves because we are that substance.
I am beginning to think I understand Spinoza about as well as I understand the theory of evolution. (both are off...) Spinoza's view is in his mind (well, he's dead though so he doesn't HAVE a mind right now), but just to say that I believe God knows who Spinoza was and it is possible He, God, will remember Spinoza and bring him back from the dead some day. Recreating all the "substance" of Spinoza's being. :) Cells and all...
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Having compassion for all.
Now metis, here's my mind. A killer might have compassion for those he killed, right? But that might not stop him beforehand from killing his enemy, or what is said to be his enemy by other forces considered superior. OK, don't want to get into a big argument about this now, metis, so once again I bid you good day and I look forward to the fulfillment of God's promises as outlined in the Bible, which I hope you do, too. Take care and thank you for your comments. May God bless you.
 
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