Not taking the bible literally

[Terrywoodenpic]

I guess the interpretation, whether it should be taken literally or metaphorically depends on the context of a particular biblical verse. For example: Mark 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." If I am to take that literally, that verse states that I am immune of poison (because I believe in Christ), but of course there are no Christians that are immune to poison just because they are Christians. In the Catholic denomination, we seek the teachings of the Church so that we'll know when a particular verse states something symbolical or literal so personally, I'm not having much problems with this.

There are two endings to Marks Gospel The shorter ends befor 16:9 the other longer version ends after 16:19.
The Passage you gave is in the longer version only... It is not clear if both endings are new material added to make up for the missing end of the scroll. ( both the beginning and end are missing)

However the long ending does have rather a gnostic feel that is not out of place.

 

[Renji]

There are two endings to Marks Gospel The shorter ends befor 16:9 the other longer version ends after 16:19.
The Passage you gave is in the longer version only... It is not clear if both endings are new material added to make up for the missing end of the scroll. ( both the beginning and end are missing)

However the long ending does have rather a gnostic feel that is not out of place.

I know, I just don't have much time right now to elaborate that.

 

[Renji]

I would be encouraged to here a Jewish point of view.

I second to this.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I guess the interpretation, whether it should be taken literally or metaphorically depends on the context of a particular biblical verse. For example: Mark 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all;

Please keep in mind that Mark's gospel ends at Mark 16v8.

Please notice the style of writing changes after verse 8.

Unlike the rest of Scripture there are No corresponding or parallel verses or passages after verse 8

Jerome and Eusebius agree Mark 16 ends at verse 8

Both the Sinaitic and Vatican 1209, etc. ends at verse 8.

When was Jesus ascended to heaven [Acts 1 vs9-12] ?

Mark 16v19 has Jesus prematurely gone to heaven.

 

[ScottySatan]

I guess the interpretation, whether it should be taken literally or metaphorically depends on the context of a particular biblical verse. For example: Mark 16:18 they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." If I am to take that literally, that verse states that I am immune of poison (because I believe in Christ), but of course there are no Christians that are immune to poison just because they are Christians. In the Catholic denomination, we seek the teachings of the Church so that we'll know when a particular verse states something symbolical or literal so personally, I'm not having much problems with this.

So does the catholic church have an established answer to the events recorded in the bible, as to whether that are literal or symbolic? What are some examples?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So does the catholic church have an established answer to the events recorded in the bible, as to whether that are literal or symbolic? What are some examples?

The Idea that the entire Bible might be literal is new. None of the old churches either thought, or taught that to be so.

That is such a basic concept and so easy to understand and so strongly entrenched, that literal understanding seems absurd.

I had no Idea that any one thought that way, till I came into contact with some southern Baptists in the late 60's.

 

[ScottySatan]

The Idea that the entire Bible might be literal is new. None of the old churches either thought, or taught that to be so.

Ok, but most christians and jews take at least some parts of the bible as being historically accurate. At the very least, christians and jews both think that the jews really were in Egypt, they really were conquered by Babylon and Persia. Jesus really was crucified. Paul really did write a bunch of letters to provide guidance to churches all around.

There's no obvious difference in the wording of the bible to indicate what is literal and what is not. Was Job real, or was he a symbol?

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART OF THE QUESTION-> How have you personally decided what's literal and what's not?

edited to add: Can you really be a christian if you believe that none of the events recorded in the bible actually happened? Surely you must believe that something in there really happened.

 

[javajo]

God used two great languages to give us his word for a reason. He wanted us to read it and understand it. When we decide it does not say what it actually says, we can make it say anything we want and make our own god in the process.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Ok, but most christians and jews take at least some parts of the bible as being historically accurate. At the very least, christians and jews both think that the jews really were in Egypt, they really were conquered by Babylon and Persia. Jesus really was crucified. Paul really did write a bunch of letters to provide guidance to churches all around.

There's no obvious difference in the wording of the bible to indicate what is literal and what is not. Was Job real, or was he a symbol?

THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART OF THE QUESTION-> How have you personally decided what's literal and what's not?

edited to add: Can you really be a christian if you believe that none of the events recorded in the bible actually happened? Surely you must believe that something in there really happened.

Much of the Bible seems to be a a later record of events that were believed to have happened. Very little can be graced with the word history as it can neither be verified or proved. some of the old testament is myth some poetry some law and some historical. The Jews have a very different way of understanding these writings than do Christians.
The New testament is more of a problem as we are not sure who most of the authors were, and they are rarely who they purport to be. This includes the important Gospels and many of the letters of Paul.

I have little difficulty in believing most of the Teachings of Jesus especially those that match what we believe to be the Christian Ethic.

Almost all the Bible has value as a Christian resource.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I have little difficulty in believing most of the Teachings of Jesus especially those that match what we believe to be the Christian Ethic.
Almost all the Bible has value as a Christian resource.

According to Scripture 'all' Scripture is inspired by God. -2nd Tim 3vs16,17.

Which teachings of Jesus do Not match Christian ethic?

 

[ScottySatan]

God used two great languages to give us his word for a reason. He wanted us to read it and understand it. When we decide it does not say what it actually says, we can make it say anything we want and make our own god in the process.

I agree. This is what I'm thinking about when I ask this stuff, but do many christians agree with this?

 

[ScottySatan]

I have little difficulty in believing most of the Teachings of Jesus especially those that match what we believe to be the Christian Ethic.

Almost all the Bible has value as a Christian resource.

So I think you're saying that it doesn't matter whether the events happened or not? Sure, I like that. However, there is a core set of beliefs in christianity, and some of them apply to my question. christ dying for your sins? Is it not important to you whether that actually happened or not?

 

[strikeviperMKII]

do you believe that it was originally intended to be taken literally?

In times of great uncertainty, stress and strife, we retreat back to walls we 'know' will keep us safe. Investors do not invest new money, people don't go out and buy new things, armies fortify their positions, countries turn to isolationism. Religious people start taking things as literally as they can, to justify themselves.

Example:
Luke 10:25-29
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

The thing about taking things literally is that most of the time, we already know the answer. We just don't like it very much and will do everything we possibly can to avoid it.

To answer your question though, it is irrelevant.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

So I think you're saying that it doesn't matter whether the events happened or not? Sure, I like that. However, there is a core set of beliefs in christianity, and some of them apply to my question. christ dying for your sins? Is it not important to you whether that actually happened or not?

It is certain that Christ Died on the Cross.
It is less clear that he Died for our Sins... that is a later rationalisation.
Of course if you wish to believe that, that is fine.

I am of the opinion that we are alone responsible for our own sins.
And that if we truly repent they will be forgiven.

I suspect Jesus Crucifixion gives another more important message.
That if you follow and truly believe his teachings, no sacrifice is too great to bear.
The Crucifixion was a demonstration of his love and sacrifice to show the importance of his teachings and how far we must be prepared to go in establishing God's Kingdom on Earth.

That is a tough act to follow but has in the extreme been followed by an army of Martyrs.

 

[ScottySatan]

It is certain that Christ Died on the Cross.
It is less clear that he Died for our Sins... that is a later rationalisation.
Of course if you wish to believe that, that is fine.

Cool! So, is anything else historical fact? How do you tell the difference? I realize it might not be important to you, but I'm just wondering. I'm trying to figure out how people construct their religions.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

In times of great uncertainty, stress and strife, we retreat back to walls we 'know' will keep us safe. Investors do not invest new money, people don't go out and buy new things, armies fortify their positions, countries turn to isolationism. Religious people start taking things as literally as they can, to justify themselves.

Example:
Luke 10:25-29
25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”
27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.”
28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”
29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

The thing about taking things literally is that most of the time, we already know the answer. We just don't like it very much and will do everything we possibly can to avoid it.

To answer your question though, it is irrelevant.

That is an clear example of a Jesus teaching that matches in every way, with his message of Love and compassion.
What is described may or not be a literal event. it is a remembrance of a teaching which in itself is true; Luke or the Author of Luke or a witness to the event, recorded it from memory. As a story, It is unlikely to be a first hand record.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Cool! So, is anything else historical fact? How do you tell the difference? I realize it might not be important to you, but I'm just wondering. I'm trying to figure out how people construct their religions.

A useful starting point is to Have a look at the statement of Faith here... Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

It is about as minimal as you can get.

The next step is to read and learn every thing you can about the Christian message, as found in the Bible or elsewhere.
Then refine your thoughts to those things that conform to Jesus Teachings.
After that you end up like me a minimalist Dogma Christian. Who requires no proof, no "Established" facts and a freedom to follow Christ teachings unfettered by make believe or false proofs.

This does not suit many people, as most prefer the prepacked version directly off a Church shelf.

 

[ScottySatan]

A useful starting point is to Have a look at the statement of Faith here... Welcome to The Non-Subscribing Presbyterian Church of Ireland

It is about as minimal as you can get.

The next step is to read and learn every thing you can about the Christian message, as found in the Bible or elsewhere.
Then refine your thoughts to those things that conform to Jesus Teachings.
After that you end up like me a minimalist Dogma Christian. Who requires no proof, no "Established" facts and a freedom to follow Christ teachings unfettered by make believe or false proofs.

This does not suit many people, as most prefer the prepacked version directly off a Church shelf.

I'll look into it if you answer my question.

 

[peacecrusader888]

20111115.1305

@Terrywoodenpic, #34

I agree with you that the crucifixion of Jesus “was a demonstration of his love and sacrifice to show the importance of his teachings and far we must be prepared to go in establishing God’s Kingdom on Earth.” This shows how sincere and true His love for us is. He offered His own life. Jesus said in John 15:13, “Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.”

To sin is to violate the commandments of the true God. So, it depends upon a person where he would like live in the afterlife forever, to be rewarded with a life to live with God in His kingdom or to be punished in Hell. “If a person wants to be evil, it is his choice to be evil. If he wants to be healed, it is also his choice to be healed.” In Filipino, it says, “Kung ibig mong sumama (to be evil), sa iyo magmumula. Kung ibig mong gumaling, sa iyo manggagaling.”

We can be healed if we sincerely repent. God will forgive us. And promise that that we will not offend God anymore.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

I'll look into it if you answer my question.

I though I had answerd your questions.......

On the History question. There is no "Easy" answer. You have to do a little study.
Some of the Bible, like Genisis, offers no "proof" in any way. It reads like the hand me down verbal tradition that it is. It has much of the feeling of a Norse saga.

This does not mean it is does not give any useful insights into an earlier belief in God,it simply means it basis is now so far removed from what we know about history and the world, that its historical worth is minimal indeed.

The bible is full of situations like this. Many historians who do not doubt the existance of a person Called Jesus, though they are quite unable to find any existing historical proof. However Historical fact is not the only way we can conclude that he was who the bible says he is. The oral tradition and supporting writing is wide ranging and specific.

How did I construct my faith/Religion...

That is a very hard question to answer... but is based on a strong bias of "Doubt"

It has taken 76 years to arrive at where I am now... but I have never been far away.
I separated Worship from Faith many years ago.
By that I mean I love the worship pattens and style of the Anglican faith. however I do not believe in all the "Required" dogma.
My process was to reduce every thing to a minimum set that I had little doubt about.
Nothing was beyond Question.

I have arrived at the point where I have few doubts, I still worship in an Anglican Church (who are very undemanding).

I believe in a few things that I can list here as a basis. (but they really need far more explanation)

God Is Love
Jesus is his spiritual Son
The holy Ghost, is the comforter and is with us all, Christian or not.
That the Trinity is a form of words not a fact.
Repentance is necessary for forgiveness.
Sin is ours alone ( there is no original Sin)
On Death we "return" to God.
There is no later separate resurrection of the body.
Heaven and Hell are not "Places"
"Satan" is the baser side of our nature.

If we obey Jesus' teachings, we shall be following his plan for the perfection of mankind and God's creation.

Do other people believe exactly as I do? I doubt it very much....