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Nothing lasts forever in this life

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Isn't that true? That Baha'is have to believe in what Abdul Baha' says? Could you clarify what is expected of a Baha'i concerning the teachings of Baha'u'llah, then Abdul Baha', then the Guardian, Shoghi Effendi, and now the UHJ? I thought all were to be obeyed? Because doesn't that create a problem if some Baha'is go around saying that they disagree with some of the things that Abdul Baha' said, or that the Guardian said or that the UHU said?
Yes, @Trailblazer is being forgetful/dishonest/confused again (I struggle to determine which).
Bahaullah said that Bahais have to accept whatever he says is from god without doubt, even if it sounds nonsensical.
The actual expression he used was "Were He to pronounce the right to be the left or the south to be the north, He speaketh the truth and there is no doubt of it."
She has previously admitted that she "can only go by what Bahaullah said in his writings".
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
Also ironic that after many centuries of happily not just bullying, but oppressing, persecuting and killing disbelievers, they now whinge about "bullying" when sceptics point out the problems with their belief on Internet forums.
Also ironic, Baha'is disagree with the various Hindus and Christians that post on their threads. Why can't they meet them halfway? Things like Krishna being an incarnation of Vishnu and about reincarnation. And Jesus being God and having physically resurrected.

Why can't they believe those Hindus and Christians? It's the same thing. Baha'i don't believe those things and, even if they ask for proof, they aren't going to accept it but find fault with it.

One of my aims is to help people think more rationally, to be more critical of their beliefs, to not just blindly follow dogma.
More irony, Baha'is believe that religion without the rationality of science can become superstition. Yet, Baha'i put out things they can't rationally support. And again, they do the same thing to Christians that believe in a young Earth or that Jesus ascended into the clouds. They reject those Christians that believe those things, because they aren't supported by science.

I've learned from my personal interactions with skeptics that the majority of them—both theists and atheists alike—will never be satisfied with the answers we provide for them.
It does go both ways. You don't believe their arguments either. But I'd suspect that some religious people disagree with you also, especially Fundy Christians. They "know" what you've experienced is not true. And you know it is true. Where do you go from there? You know neither you nor they will give in. Then add in an atheist, and the atheist will disagree with both of you.

The problem could be with the answers you are giving rather than the person you are giving them to.
Most of the arguments/debates are about claims the Baha'i has made. Like you said so many times, they put out those claims in a religious debate forum... What did they expect? "Oh yes, I respect and understand your belief about God, or Baha'u'llah or the afterlife. or whatever.... I have a different belief. But no need to argue over it. " That's usually not going to happen. More likely, to them, it's going to sound like, "Are you nuts? Are you completely out of your mind? How can anyone with half a brain believe such a thing?" But really, it's basically asking, "Where's you proof and evidence? You can't just say things and expect people to believe them just because your supposed prophet of God said so."

The answers haven't been and can't be backed up with anything other than, "Are guy said so. And he came from God." And again, the irony is.... They reject the beliefs of people in the other religions for the same reasons. But instead of this meeting people "halfway" I think Baha'is are supposed to find the common ground between people... to find the things both sides can agree on. Has any Baha'i done that?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
What KWED suggested was not halfway, it was all the way, the way he wants it so he can claim that Baha'u'llah was a liar and a deceiver and God does not exist. He is free to believe that if he wants to but that is not meeting us halfway. Meeting us halfway would be saying that Baha'u'llah was a good man and he was sincere, but he was not a Messenger of God.

idiom. to do some of the things that someone wants you to do, in order to show that you want to reach an agreement or improve your relationship with them. SMART Vocabulary: related words and phrases. Accepting & agreeing reluctantly.Sep 7, 2022
Meaning of meet someone halfway in English

As Baha'is, we cannot meet people halfway on who Baha'u'llah was, a Messenger of God, because we would not be Baha'is anymore if we did not believe that, but we can meet people halfway on other points of discussion. That was what I was referring to. Lots of people who do not agree meet others halfway, but some people can never seem to do that because they always have to be 100% right about everything.
Wrong. And you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. I clearly stated that "halfway" is to agree with me that Bahaullah must have been one of the following possibilities:
A) Delusional
B) Dishonest
C) An actual messenger of an actual god.

I'm there. Your friend @Seeker of White Light has said you should meet me there.
Will you?
I suspect not.
Because, as @Seeker of White Light said, "nobody else can have right, except for yourself, you have never wrong" .
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Agree with you Again:)
Hold on. You were earlier complaining about people who have to be only right, never wrong.
Now you are saying that it's ok to insist that you are right and not consider the possibility that you are wrong - as I do.
Do you have your own personal irony mine?
 

KWED

Scratching head, scratching knee
Meeting people halfway? Where's the halfway point in the claims and beliefs about an after-life? Or whether there is a God? Or whether Baha'u'llah is the latest manifestation of God in a long line of manifestations?

But coming from the other direction... do Baha'is want to meet at the halfway point between their beliefs and the beliefs that there is no soul and after-life? And there is no God? And Baha'u'llah isn't a manifestation of God? Why would they do that? But what they can do is give us the reasons why they believe those things. And that's where things fall apart. They believe them, because Baha'u'llah said so. Which leads to the questions that ask for proof of God and proof that Baha'u'llah is from God. Of course, they can't prove it to anyone other than themselves. His mission, his life, his teachings or whatever it was.

It's the same debate that's been going on for years. Is Baha'u'llah for real? Where's the halfway point to that? He might be real? Are Baha'is okay with that? The things he taught might be true? Would Baha'is be able to agree to that? I don't think so. They believe God, Baha'u'llah and the things he taught are true... In fact, they are The Truth.

And what does that mean for us? We are blind, lost and don't know the truth when we people lay it right there out in front of us. I really don't think there's is a halfway point that they'd agree to. What do you think Baha'is... Is there one?
We have established that @Trailblazer and @Seeker of White Light expect sceptics to meet them halfway, but they don't have to budge an inch.
And yet they accuse me of being inflexible and only wanting to be right. :tearsofjoy:
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Wrong. And you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. I clearly stated that "halfway" is to agree with me that Bahaullah must have been one of the following possibilities:
A) Delusional
B) Dishonest
C) An actual messenger of an actual god.

I'm there. Your friend @Seeker of White Light has said you should meet me there.
Will you?
I suspect not.
Because, as @Seeker of White Light said, "nobody else can have right, except for yourself, you have never wrong" .
I never said that.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
In what way are "their life, their teachings" evidence that a god exists? Why is what they wrote not possible as the product of a human mind?

What does "the civilization they raise up to a higher level." mean?
It's something about God gives new teachings as people progress spiritually. This creates what they call an "ever-advancing" civilization. This ties in with their belief in "progressive" revelation... That each manifestation of God tells people a little bit, then promises that someone will be sent later to give some more information. But they also believe that no one was left without guidance.

I've got a zillion questions about this. But how can a Baha'i answer them? One problem is that some of the greatest civilizations and empires were people that had horrible gods and religious beliefs. How did they get so great? It's because they kicked butt and forced other people and cultures to submit to them. They killed them, enslaved them until they fall apart or were they themselves conquered. But even the "real" religions of God did those things. They went out conquering and forcing their beliefs on others. So, was it God or just because they were bigger, stronger and meaner than the people they conquered? How does a Baha'i answer that?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Meeting people halfway? Where's the halfway point in the claims and beliefs about an after-life? Or whether there is a God? Or whether Baha'u'llah is the latest manifestation of God in a long line of manifestations?
There is no halfway point on these beliefs. They are either true or false, but there are many other points of discussion where we can meet people halfway. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
those who keep an open mind will require something approaching objective evidence.
Those who keep an 'open mind' will not require objective evidence for what can never be verified, they will accept the evidence that is available.

It is those who are rigid and do not have an open mind who require objective evidence for everything, even when such evidence is not logically possible to procure.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
I never said that.
No, and that is the problem, people taking what we say, thinking they know what we meant, and creating a strawman.

What some atheists such as @KWED totally miss is that NONE of this is about who is right and who is wrong. It is all about what we believe, which can never be proven right or wrong. When people make the discussion about who is right and who is wrong that is ego and the need to be right.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
The only thing that has been established is that @Trailblazer and @Seeker of White Light do not expect anything from anyone because we don't care what you believe or disbelieve. It is you who is obsessed with what we believe.
@Trailblazer and I can not change other people's belief or non belief :) both of us Will present Baha'i a bit different because our understanding of the teaching is different but we both believe in the same teaching and founders of the faith.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
No, and that is the problem, people taking what we say, thinking they know what we meant, and creating a strawman.

What some atheists such as @KWED totally miss is that NONE of this is about who is right and who is wrong. It is all about what we believe, which can never be proven right or wrong. When people make the discussion about who is right and who is wrong that is ego and the need to be right.
Yes, Baha'i is a belief system.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
@Trailblazer and I can not change other people's belief or non belief :) both of us Will present Baha'i a bit different because our understanding of the teaching is different but we both believe in the same teaching and founders of the faith.
Yes, we both believe in the same teaching and founders of the faith, and that is what unifies us and makes us Baha'is. There is no need to agree on everything.
 

dybmh

דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I have faith in the teaching and that is what I follow. Why should I go halfway away from it?
Meeting half way is acknowleging the strong points of the opposition's reasoning and not repeatedly putting out weak arguments of your own which are not going to be believed.
 

Spirit of Light

Be who ever you want
Meeting half way is acknowleging the strong points of the opposition's reasoning and not repeatedly putting out weak arguments of your own which are not going to be believed.
If others do not believe what I believe that is not an issue for me. Holding a personal belief in a spiritual teaching is a path inward to become a better human being.
I don't have to fight others who believe different than I do.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Wrong. And you are deliberately misrepresenting my argument. I clearly stated that "halfway" is to agree with me that Bahaullah must have been one of the following possibilities:
A) Delusional
B) Dishonest
C) An actual messenger of an actual god.

I'm there. Your friend @Seeker of White Light has said you should meet me there.
Will you?
There is no halfway place to meet because if A and B are true then C is false and if C is true then A and B are false.
I suspect not.
Because, as @Seeker of White Light said, "nobody else can have right, except for yourself, you have never wrong" .
NONE of this discussion is about who is right and who is wrong.
Religious beliefs can never be proven right or wrong.
Religious beliefs are about what we believers 'believe' is true.
 
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