Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Trailblazer]

You are not only attempting to define an undefined word with undefined words, but you are attempting to define an undefined word with itself.

The words were defined. Just because I do not know the nature of the spirit/soul that does not mean the words were not defined.

What about the description of X being a mystery to you means something other than you don't know what X is?

It means I do not know the nature of X because it is a mystery. However, I know the function of X.

 

[samtonga43]

KWED said: But you made specific claims about what the afterlife will be like.
Were you just making it up?

TB said: What claims are those? The only claims I made is that it will be a spiritual world and we will have a spiritual body rather than a physical body. Other than that, I know nothing about the afterlife.

But you say that time as we know it in this life does not exist in the afterlife. So it seems you DO know something about the afterlife.
You are contradicting yourself again.

 

[Trailblazer]

But you say that time as we know it in this life does not exist in the afterlife. So it seems you DO know something about the afterlife.
You are contradicting yourself again.

No, because I don't know anything about how time exists in the afterlife.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, other animals do not have souls, they have animal spirits, and that is what enables their brains to function.

Did Bahaollah (or his progeny) say that or it is your guess? Quote please, if you can.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, because I don't know anything about how time exists in the afterlife.

You know it. It is eternal. Did not Bahaollah say that?

 

[Trailblazer]

Did Bahaollah (or his progeny) say that or it is your guess? Quote please, if you can.

No, Baha'u'llah did not say it, Abdu'l-Baha said it.

Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?

Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

The vegetable spirit is the power of growth which is brought about in the seed through the influence of other existences.

The animal spirit is the power of all the senses, which is realized from the composition and mingling of elements; when this composition decomposes, the power also perishes and becomes annihilated. It may be likened to this lamp: when the oil, wick and fire are combined, it is lighted; and when this combination is dissolved—that is to say, when the combined parts are separated from one another—the lamp also is extinguished.

The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.

This explanation, though short, is complete; therefore, reflect upon it, and if God wills, you may become acquainted with the details.”

Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[Trailblazer]

You know it. It is eternal. Did not Bahaollah say that?

Yes, I know it is eternal so it is without end, but I don't know how time exists in the afterlife.

 

[Aupmanyav]

No, Baha'u'llah did not say it, Abdu'l-Baha said it.
Question.—What is the difference between the mind, spirit and soul?
Answer.—It has been before explained that spirit is universally divided into five categories: the vegetable spirit, the animal spirit, the human spirit, the spirit of faith, and the Holy Spirit.

Divine knowledge. Hail the 'Master'.
That is what happens when one has not studied in a school or college.
And the believers lap it up.

 

[Truthseeker]

I do not see a problem at all. Brain is like a computer, 0 and 1, switches in billions of neurons. So any experience gets categorized at various levels. Then there is fuzzy search, where it jumps from one point to another related (closely or distantly) one. Some people make it into a problem, others do not. Depends on what group you will like to join.

"The existence of a "hard problem" is controversial. It has been accepted by philosophers of mind such as Joseph Levine, Colin McGinn, and Ned Block and cognitive neuroscientists such as Francisco Varela, Giulio Tononi, and Christof Koch. However, its existence is disputed by philosophers of mind such as Daniel Dennett, Massimo Pigliucci, Thomas Metzinger, Patricia Churchland, and Keith Frankish, and cognitive neuroscientists such as Stanislas Dehaene, Bernard Baars, Anil Seth, and Antonio Damasio.
According to physicalism, everything can be explained by appeal to its microphysical constituents, including consciousness"
Hard problem of consciousness - Wikipedia

Yes, there is controversy. What else did you expect?

 

[Truthseeker]

So how are we able to manipulate consciousness by electro, chemical and physical means? It consciousness is "the soul" and is independent of the physical brain, then it should not be possible.
More evidence that consciousness is a product of the brain. And you still have no evidence that there is such a thing as a "soul".

No, there is no evidence of that, true. But something is not physical would have no evidence in a physical world.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, there is no evidence of that, true. But something is not physical would have no evidence in a physical world.

Hey Duane, that's my line.

Go and check out my photos of Mount Rainier.
My hike in Mount Rainier National Park

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yes, there is controversy. What else did you expect?

I did not expect cognitive neuroscientists such as Francisco Varela, Giulio Tononi, and Christof Koch to differ from other scientists.
I checked the information on all three scientists and find nothing which goes against materialistic theory of consciousness. Varela may have been influenced by Buddhist theories of consciousness.

But something is not physical would have no evidence in a physical world.

Nice way to end a discussion. God is not from physical world so it will have no evidence. Consciousness of the 'soul' is not physical, so there won't be any evidence. Why do all things that you believe in end with no evidence in physical world?

 

[Spirit of Light]

I did not expect cognitive neuroscientists such as Francisco Varela, Giulio Tononi, and Christof Koch to differ from other scientists.
I checked the information on all three scientists and find nothing which goes against materialistic theory of consciousness. Varela may have been influenced by Buddhist theories of consciousness.Nice way to end a discussion. God is not from physical world so it will have no evidence. Consciousness of the 'soul' is not physical, so there won't be any evidence. Why do all things that you believe in end with no evidence in physical world?

Probably because what believers tend to believe in, has to do with heaven, and spiritual realms where one hope to enter when our physical body dies. Many believers (including me) do not believe this physical world is the true life we are meant to live. This physical world is only a school for us to realize and understand who we truly are (non physical beings)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Nothing lasts forever in this life. Our life in this world is all about change and we can count on change, whether we like it or not. What is here today might last for a while but eventually it will be gone. Some people experience more happiness than other people but their happiness is not guaranteed to last forever as it could turn to sorrow overnight.

“O thou seeker of the Kingdom! Thy letter was received. Thou hast written of the severe calamity that hath befallen thee—the death of thy respected husband. That honourable man hath been so subjected to the stress and strain of this world that his greatest wish was for deliverance from it. Such is this mortal abode: a storehouse of afflictions and suffering. It is ignorance that binds man to it, for no comfort can be secured by any soul in this world, from monarch down to the most humble commoner.”
Selections From the Writings of ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, p. 200

Such is the nature of this material world. Nothing lasts forever, so this world cannot be relied upon for permanent happiness. We might be very happy with a new car or a new house but eventually there will be problems. We might be happy with a new job we got, but it will not last forever, it will end when we retire. We might be happily enjoying retirement years but that will eventually end, as nothing lasts forever.

I am not suggesting that people should not enjoy what the material world has to offer but I see a certain danger in becoming attached to anything that is impermanent because it will ultimately end and then what will we have at the end of this life?

We might be very happy in a marriage, but about half of all marriages end in divorce. Even if it does not end in divorce eventually it will end, as physical death will surely tear it asunder. No matter how much people try not to think about it, one or the other of the spouses is going to die first and leave the other behind. All living things will die eventually, and that includes our beloved animal friends. The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away.

Much as I often feel that physical death is a cruel act of God, I accept physical death as an unavoidable reality of life in this physical world, and I also see it as an opportunity for new beginnings. Since this physical life has to go until it ends, I believe we should try to make the best of the time we have in this world.

Man is said to die when the respiration of the lungs and the beatings of the heart cease, but I do not believe that the man actually dies. He is merely separated from the bodily part that was of use to him in this world, while the man himself continues to live. The man continues to live since man is not a man because of his body but because of his spirit (soul). It is the spirit that thinks in man, and thoughts and feelings are what constitutes man. The death of man is merely his passing from this physical world into the spiritual world, where the man takes on a spiritual body and continues to live forever.

Thus, I do not believe that physical death is the end of life. It is only the end of this physical life, but it is the beginning of a new life in the spiritual world.

Yes, our life is fragile and thus very precious. We have to appreciate every single day of being alive, experiencing things, having relationships, memories...

I see you have a very strong faith in afterlife. Good for you if it gives you peace and comfort. I like life and relationships and I would like it to continue. But I'm not so sure there is something after death. If there is something I'll let myself be pleasently surprised.

Maybe @Sgt. Pepper can tell us something about contact with spirits of departed.

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do all things that you believe in end with no evidence in physical world?

Because they are not in the physical world.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes, our life is fragile and thus very precious. We have to appreciate every single day of being alive, experiencing things, having relationships, memories...

I fully agree. We should appreciate this life and make the best of every day even if there is an afterlife.

I see you have a very strong faith in afterlife. Good for you if it gives you peace and comfort. I like life and relationships and I would like it to continue. But I'm not so sure there is something after death. If there is something I'll let myself be pleasantly surprised.

I am positive that there is an afterlife, but I have no idea what it will be like since that has not been revealed in any scriptures. Baha'u'llah said such knowledge is with God alone.

“As to those that have tasted of the fruit of man’s earthly existence, which is the recognition of the one true God, exalted be His glory, their life hereafter is such as We are unable to describe. The knowledge thereof is with God, alone, the Lord of all worlds.” Gleanings, pp. 345-346

Maybe @Sgt. Pepper can tell us something about contact with spirits of departed.

I can also tell you something about that.
and sometimes we not only contact them, they contact us.

 

[Aupmanyav]

and sometimes we not only contact them, they contact us.

And the contact sometimes is nice, sometimes bad.

 

[KWED]

My point still stands.
I made no claims about what the afterlife will be like.
I made claims about what the afterlife will not be like.
1. There is no sunset
2. There is no sunrise
3. Time is different to how we experience it

1-3 does not tell us what the afterlife will be like.

Oh dear god, you're doing this again are you?
Points 1-3 are claims about what the afterlife will be like!

Saying "there is no sunset" is making a positive claim about the nature of the afterlife. You are saying "There is.."

If someone said that there will be sunsets, and you rejected that claim because they could provide no evidence to support their claim, then you wouldn't be making any claim about what the afterlife is like.

 

[KWED]

What alternative explanation has supporting evidence?

That consciousness is a product of the physical brain.

 

[KWED]

Consciousness IS a product of the brain, as long as we have a brain, but when we die and no longer have a brain, consciousness continues, since the soul is responsible for consciousness.

And there we have your classic internally contradictory statements again.
Is consciousness a product of the physical brain, or is it a product of the soul?

The evidence of the soul are its 'effects' upon the mind and body, but it cannot be proven that the soul is responsible for these effects since the soul is a mystery of God.

There is no evidence that anything has any part in consciousness apart from the physical brain, so why would you claim that it does?
You may as well claim that pixies make internal combustion engines work, but it can't be proven because they are a mystery.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel.”

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

More meaningless platitudes.