Nothing lasts forever in this life

[Goldemar]

But why would a Baha'i joke use a Christian type of heaven? Why would Hindus and Buddhists be in some mansion in a Christian heaven? Those souls that believe in reincarnation would be waiting to be sent back to Earth and enter a different body.

Then the Baha'i afterlife has people that developed their spiritual side more than others would be closer to God. But I think they have everyone continuing to progress. Which, I suppose, even the worst of us?

I understand the joke to be more about those who believe that only they will get to Heaven than anything.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you are claiming that Bahaism was designed for Middle Eastern ex-Muslims? Bahaullah did not realise that it would expand beyond the Ottoman Empire?

That is not what @Truthseeker said. He said:

"He lived in a Moslem country, and almost all His Tablets addressed to Muslims, Babis and Baha'is. The scope where what it was known what He would have said was limited at that time. There were no Western Baha'is at that time."

It is abundantly clear from the Writings of Baha'u'llah that His religion was revealed for the whole world, and of course Baha'u'llah knew it would spread to the whole world eventually, and it did. However, the Baha'i Faith had not spread to other parts of the world during His lifetime..

"Given the vast quantity of his writings and the fact that they were communicated to him by an omni-everything, infallible god, seems a bit odd that he didn't even make one mention of the other religions in the world beyond his own experience.
It's almost as if we was only writing from his own experience!

Baha'u'llah did not come to talk about 'other religions' that have been abrogated by His Revelation. That was not part of His Mission.

 

[Trailblazer]

And yet, whenever I ask you for the argument or evidence for him being a messenger of god, you always respond with what he said!

I never responded with what He said. I only ever responded with what He said to look at as evidence that supports His claims. After all, who would know what the evidence is better than the person making the claim?

If I make a claim that I am X, then it is my responsibility to tell you what the evidence is that supports my claim to be X.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Advertising" seems to be another word that you are struggling with.
To the open-minded, objective observer, your posts do nothing to make Bahaism look attractive or even rational.

You do not know what my posts make the Baha'i Faith look like to other people. All you do is project what you think they look like onto other people.

But keep going, because all you are accomplishing is providing more free advertising for the Baha'i Faith. Whether people actually buy the product or not is of no import.

“No one casts stones at a tree without fruit. No one tries to extinguish a lamp without light! …….

And I say unto you that no calumny is able to prevail against the Light of God; it can only result in causing it to be more universally recognized. If a cause were of no significance, who would take the trouble to work against it!

But always the greater the cause the more do enemies arise in larger and larger numbers to attempt its overthrow! The brighter the light the darker the shadow! Our part it is to act in accordance with the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh in humility and firm steadfastness.”
Paris Talks, pp. 105-106

 

[Trailblazer]

So when he said that he created mankind "only to worship him", he was lying. He actually created mankind with an inbuilt caste system, where only the ones he creates able to worship him can worship him.
So why does he create people who are unable to worship him? What's the point?

He doesn't create people that way. Everyone has the capacity to recognize the Messengers and worship God. Otherwise we could not be held accountable.

“He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

“.... I have perfected in every one of you My creation, so that the excellence of My handiwork may be fully revealed unto men. It follows, therefore, that every man hath been, and will continue to be, able of himself to appreciate the Beauty of God, the Glorified. Had he not been endowed with such a capacity, how could he be called to account for his failure?” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 143

But the ability to recognise a messenger is determined by god.

Yes, and God endowed everyone with that ability/capacity (see above).

So god is happy with the vast majority of mankind never worshiping him, despite only creating them to worship him.
Yeah, that makes sense.

The vast majority of people in the world do worship God.
Almost everyone in the world has a religion, and even the unaffiliated who have no religion believe in God. Only about 7% of the world population are agnostics and atheists.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

So you do find it convincing. And you find it convincing because it is in the scriptures. And whatever is in the Scriptures must be true.
There's that classic circular logic again.

No, there is your classic straw man again.

So you are calling god illogical for creating mankind in the first place, because he created mankind only to worship him and he has no need for worship.

God has no need for worship because God has no needs.

“Regard thou the one true God as One Who is apart from, and immeasurably exalted above, all created things. The whole universe reflecteth His glory, while He is Himself independent of, and transcendeth His creatures.” Gleanings, p. 166

God does not demand worship, God enjoins us to worship Him, and that is only for our own benefit, not for God’s benefit.

“Consider the mercy of God and His gifts. He enjoineth upon you that which shall profit you, though He Himself can well dispense with all creatures.” Gleanings, p. 140

“The one true God, exalted be His glory, hath wished nothing for Himself. The allegiance of mankind profiteth Him not, neither doth its perversity harm Him. The Bird of the Realm of Utterance voiceth continually this call: “All things have I willed for thee, and thee, too, for thine own sake.” Gleanings, p. 260

But given that, you claim it is more logical for god to want only a few people to worship him than everyone. So he creates billions but only gives a few the ability to worship him.

Dear gods! Do you even think about what you post?

Dear God! I suggest you get on board with the stats.

The vast majority of people in the world do worship God.
Almost everyone in the world has a religion, and even the unaffiliated who have no religion believe in God. Only about 7% of the world population are agnostics and atheists.

List of religious populations - Wikipedia

Demographics of atheism - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

The problem you have is that none of those are convincing to objective, impartial, open-minded examination. They all require an existing belief that there are actually "fulfilled prophesies".

No, they only require matching up what actually happened on the ground with what is written in the prophecy.

 

[samtonga43]

No, they only require matching up what actually happened on the ground with what is written in the prophecy.

Can you provide a couple of examples of a match up?

 

[Trailblazer]

Can you provide a couple of examples of a match up?

Numerous examples can be found on the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears

 

[samtonga43]

Numerous examples can be found on the book entitled Thief in the Night by William Sears

My question was "Can you provide a couple of examples of a match up?". The you means you, Tb.
So, can you?

 

[KWED]

No, they only require matching up what actually happened on the ground with what is written in the prophecy.

I will repeat my challenge that you avoided...
Present your very best, most convincing, stone dead gotcha! example of a "fulfilled prophesy", and we can examine it.

 

[KWED]

He received no revelation from God as he was a false prophet, either deluded or a lying deceiver.
I do not need an excuse for NOT following a false prophet.

Wow!
The irony is so strong I've had to open a window!

It's like you are trying to portray a ridiculous parody of the credulous, simple religionist.

 

[Trailblazer]

Wow!
The irony is so strong I've had to open a window!

It's like you are trying to portray a ridiculous parody of the credulous, simple religionist.

There was no irony.

 

[samtonga43]

There was no irony.

Oh, but there was. You just don't see it.

 

[KWED]

There was no irony.

Your statement...
"He received no revelation from God as he was a false prophet, either deluded or a lying deceiver.
I do not need an excuse for NOT following a false prophet."
could (and no doubt, is) equally be used by the follower of any other religion to describe Bahaullah.

Are you sure you know what "irony" means? If you are American it is quite possible that you don't.

 

[KWED]

I will repeat my challenge that you avoided...
Present your very best, most convincing, stone dead gotcha! example of a "fulfilled prophesy" from Bahaullah, and we can examine it.

@Trailblazer
I notice that you are steadfastly refusing to response to this.
What's up? You're usually happy to match me, post for post.

 

[CG Didymus]

I understand the joke to be more about those who believe that only they will get to Heaven than anything.

Yeah, I know. So, Baha'is wanted to poke fun at those silly Christians that believe they are the only ones that will go to a place where their Scriptures say that only they will go to.

 

[CG Didymus]

The problem you have is that none of those are convincing to objective, impartial, open-minded examination. They all require an existing belief that there are actually "fulfilled prophesies".

Rather than employing a kind of Gish Gallop, why don't you present your very best, most convincing, stone dead gotcha! example of a "fulfilled prophesy", and we can examine it.

She did that once. The one she gave was based on the King James Bible. All the other translation had wording that contradicted how the Baha'is were using the KJV.

King James Bible
In that day also he shall come even to thee from Assyria, and from the fortified cities, and from the fortress even to the river, and from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.

New King James Version
In that day they shall come to you From Assyria and the fortified cities, From the fortress to the River, From sea to sea, And mountain to mountain.

New International Version
In that day people will come to you from Assyria and the cities of Egypt, even from Egypt to the Euphrates and from sea to sea and from mountain to mountain.

New American Standard Bible
It will be a day when they will come to you From Assyria and the cities of Egypt, From Egypt even to the Euphrates River, Even from sea to sea and mountain to mountain.

JPS Tanakh 1917
There shall be a day when they shall come unto thee, From Assyria even to the cities of Egypt, And from Egypt even to the River, And from sea to sea, and from mountain to mountain.
​

The "he" in the KJV was said to be Baha'u'llah. And this was a prophecy about him being going or being taken to various places before ending up in the prison city of Akka in Palestine.

The problems... Only KJV says "he". All the others have "they" or "people". So why is it about Baha'u'llah? Then Baha'u'llah came from Persia/Iran, not Assyria. But many, many centuries ago the Assyrian Empire included part of Persia. The KJV doesn't mention Egypt, but one Baha'i said that actually, although they didn't mention it before, Egypt was one of the stop overs. And that same Baha'is said that "he" or "they" still works, because Baha'u'llah was not alone. He had other people with him.

I think the whole passage was about exiled Jews coming back, but who knows?

 

[CG Didymus]

My question was "Can you provide a couple of examples of a match up?". The you means you, Tb.
So, can you?

It's naturally right on the money for Baha'is, but to me the "fulfillments" were too flaky and vague. One goes something like this... Stars were going to fall. The Sun and/or Moon would turn dark. And there would be a great earthquake. The first prophet, the Bab, declared himself in 1844, so the writer of the "Thief in the Night, Bill Sears, found an earthquake in Portugal, a meteor shower in North America and a day where the Sun couldn't be seen. I forget, maybe it was smoke from a fire. So great, a dark day, stars falling, and an earthquake. But all happened decades before 1844 and in other parts of the world? But... that's close enough for Bill Sears, who was made a "Hand of the Cause" of the Baha'i Faith.

After debating and arguing, the conclusion was that prophecies are too vague and can be made to be fulfillments of anything a person wants. The other thing was the cherry picking... finding one verse and then making it a prophecy. My personal favorite is Baha'is believe the Three Woes in the book of Revelation are Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah. To me, it's a joke. To them, it's so clear and obvious.

 

[Truthseeker]

Your statement...
"He received no revelation from God as he was a false prophet, either deluded or a lying deceiver.
I do not need an excuse for NOT following a false prophet."
could (and no doubt, is) equally be used by the follower of any other religion to describe Bahaullah.

True. But what does that have to with @Trailblazer or mine beliefs? Those others can see it as they want to. We won't stop them.