1) Orontes said (Post #349): “Per Matt 24:13: “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved”. If you recognize the subject must endure to be saved per the very Bible you claim loyalty to, you have ceded the point. There is no getting around this. It undercuts your notion the subject is simply a passive object.”
2) Billiardsball said (Post #351) : “
Matthew 24:13 is clearly “saved physically from the Tribulation.”
3) Clear said (Post #354) : This new theory of yours that Matt 24:13 means Christians will be “saved physically” from the difficulties of tribulation is unusual, especially since he tells them in vs 9 that they will NOT be saved physically, but instead, disciples will be delivered up and put to death. The words you’re adding to the biblical text to support your theory do not exist in any known Greek New Testament and are not consistent with the historical use of the text. The text is : “
ὁ δὲ ὑπομείνας εἰς τέλος, οὗτος σωθήσεται.” And
there are no known significant variants in any greek New Testament text.
The various uses of
υπομενω (endure, persist, remain, etc) don’t seem to be associated with the blessing of being “saved physically from tribulation” (though you could offer us an example?). And the concept underlying υπομενω of “bearing up” or “enduring” don’t mean “surviving”.
For example, in the PSI IV, 435.11 papyrus (258-7 b.c.) the use of
υπομενω την ληιτο[υργ]ιαν is that of “
endure my ministry” such that a faithful choice under difficulty is implied. The only example I could find when choice was not involved refers to an undergoing of “suffering” in relation to a penalty one in Papyrus Oxy II 238.viii (186 a.d.)
δικην υπομενουσι την προσηκουσαν. However, even then, the object was not passive, the “suffering” in this case is usually an active choice. Thus the Papyrus Hamb I.22.9 speaks of a man who “suffered” for the sake of his daughter (
ος κακα πολλ υπεμεινε μιης επιηρα θυγατρος). It was his
choice to endure sacrifice (i.e. suffer) for his daughter.
When used “to Endure” and “to remain” it is not the intransitive and passive “staying behind” that is being implied, but rather a willful persistence in a difficult endeavor despite tribulation and difficulties and suffering that is implied. (
This is why it is some times rendered as “patience” in English.) Even when Petr III. 43(3) 14 papyrus (of 115 b.c.) speaks of
[ο]υχ υπομενει εκουσιως αποδιδοναι” he is speaking of a person who “
persistently” (almost a “stubborn patience…” refuses to do a thing out of choice, resisting pressure to do otherwise. It is a choice to continue in a decision that is implied.
For example, using the base word μενω in the context of place and time, P Hib I 55.6 (of 1 b.c.) uses it in the context of being unable to “
remain longer”. This is in reference to making a choice of whether or not to maintain in a position for a time. In P Ryl.II 172.81 its’ usage is in reference to TIME when a lease shall “
continue” secured, (
μενεις επι τη προγεγραμμενη μισθωσι), that is, it is
to remain engaged in an agreed upon contract or covenant. This is very much like it’s use in making the Christian covenant anciently. When used in reference to a person, there is usually a choice and will involved. It can be used for other objects that “maintain” a certain “quality” such as when hay “remains” too long uncut in P Flor (of iii a.d.).
None of the uses apply to someone who survives and is thus rewarded with physical survival or physical “salvation”.
Even the word υπο (the other half of μενω – to “abide” or “remain” in english) typically denotes a
cause. That is, something which happens “in consequence of”. That is, ones resolve remains, in consequence of a choice in the case of a person. Examples of its use often show the person one is subject to or subjects themselves to another principles (such as a soldier showing obedience or a person obedient and loyal to a promise or condition). However, in such cases, it represents
a responsibility or burden.
In this context the word is even used to describe the “burden” or “load” animals are “laden” with. In Fayr Ostrica 14:2 the use is “
one ‘donkey’ laden with barley”
υπ[ο] κριθ[ην] ονον ενα” or when “
one 'donkey' laden with vegetable seed” was spoke in Meyer Ostrica 81:2 (in 23 a.d.) or in BFU I 248:26 when “
a 'donkey' laden with three chores of wine,” and in P Tebt II 423.17 spoke of “
the animals laden with hay” (early iii a.d.).
The point is that the context of this use is that of
a burden, and in the case of mankind, it represents a promise, or covenant, or deal, or agreement, or burden that either one takes upon ones self or is placed upon one to do or be something.
Because it is a willing burden, there is a reward for having taken it upon ones self. That is the pattern of use. Even different words used to describe this early Christian promise, carry similar patterns of description and meaning of continuance and then reward. For example :
In
Romans 2:7 - To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: The word here is used for “patient continuance”. It is not continuance but involves patience on the part of the person who is enduring. It is not passive.
Luke 8:15 also renders the same word as “patience” -
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. Even the word “patience” implies more than a passive stasis, but instead implies a quality to the endurance. It is not passive, but requires an acceptance of a situation one must tolerate or suffer without getting angry or upset at external pressures and frustrations.
Even other words used to teach the same concepts are almost synonyms in that they involve both an active involvement of will and endurance. Consider, for example, the use of greek βεβαιος in Hebrews in it’s uses.
Hebrews 3:6 - But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.
Hebrews 3:14 - For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; Even when no synonym is used, the concept of remaining in a current condition and it’s association with a reward are not only recognizable, but obvious in similarity and meaning.
Hebrews 10:39 -
But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
In an almost equivalent situation to that explained by Orontes, as Jesus speaks to the Apostles, Revelation describes a similar situation where the disciples are to “
Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
Revelation 2:10
In none of these descriptions is the patient continuance of a religious burden rewarded with a physical release or salvation from "tribulation" or difficulties, (though I think there may be exceptions).
You are welcome to present your theory that Matthew 24:13 actually means "
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved (physically from the Tribulation) instead of what the text actually says, but you will have to provide some additional data and reasoning before this interpretation will make more sense than the typical use and interpretation and expected reward of salvation in the kingdom of God as a result of remaining true to all conditions of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
4) Billiardsball replied : (Post #368) Repeating: You are continuing to say this is "my theory". It isn't....You can find numerous sources online documenting my stance, and from the Greek.
Regarding the re-interpretation of Matthew 24:13
If you are now either disavowing this theory as to a re-interpretation of Matthew 24:13 or trying to move away from it, this is good.
However, you claim you can support your stance as to the "new meaning" of Matthew 24:13. If you have data and logical support, you have been asked to provide it, but have been unable to do so. So far, the data and logic and historical use of the language indicates this attempt to "re-interpret Matthew 24:13 is yet another silly theory that provides yet another example (in a increasingly long line of examples) of how loyalty to an ideology trumps the actual biblical text.
Regarding the dead Penal model and introducing irrelevance
I agree with Orontes that introducing an irrelevant issue of escatology (or trying to change the subject), cannot instill life into the dead penal model.
Clear
sieitzfu
