Now I'm curious (JW) Deal breaker

[oldbadger]

I can think and reason rationally.
......you are not arguing rationally.
..........strawman arguments.

But you can't debate very well, it seems.
You just keep falling over yourself.
EVIL! Really. An atheist's rational point, right there!

I will grant that thousands, not "many thousands" have been killed or messed up by them.

Many thousands, if you please, have I got to trawl them up for you?
Many thousands?
Just count the HIV and Hepatitis infections if you like.....

That does not refute the fact that millions have been saved.

Don't suggest that I have refuted any of the saved cases.

You have not yet identified how many JWs have been saved by staying clear of transfusions, have you?

 

[Deeje]

You're shifting the goal. I'm asking whether one obeys god's commandments or save the life of their child. My personal opinion as a non-christian is irrelevant.

Judgement is irrelevant in this question.

Well, apparently its become somewhat of an obsession with you. What difference does it make to you what decisions we make for our children? Especially medical ones. That is our choice to make, just as yours is your choice to make. If you are not a parent, then please don't tell me how to make decisions for my children. I certainly won't be telling anyone else what to do with their children. There is no question of blood saving our lives...we have proven that its better to treat our medical situations without it. There are so many safer alternatives, why would you choose the most dangerous?

Atheist parents raise their children without God and that is their right and choice until the child is of age. They can make whatever decisions they like for their minor children and we reserve the same right. Not every child raised as a JW will choose to become one. No one has a right to determine a child's faith except the child itself.

Blood does not really "save" anyone. We have proven that very low hemoglobin levels can be tolerated as long as saline blood expanders keep the volume up and the red cells that are left, are kept circulating. If you watched the video you would know this.

I don't see how this answers whether you'd obey god's rules or save your child.

Why do you keep on with this? I already stated quite clearly in a previous post that I will always obey God first....and why. I explained about our attitude towards death. It is strange to me that people morbidly fear death when it will come to all of us eventually. We are all gonna die. We have no fear of it.
Do you not read what is written in your own thread?

Your-meaning a person's child it doesn't need to be particularly yours personally.

What???? We make no decisions for anyone's child but our own.....got it?

 

[Deeje]

As far as I’m concerned, God — whether of Christians, Jews, JWs, or anyone else — is about life and health. If some point of doctrine or dogma bumps up against what is healthful and life-giving, God always favors the latter. Take, for example, Jesus’ teaching about saving one’s donkey on the sabbath. Doctrines and dogmas were made for people — not people for doctrines and dogmas. If a baby needs a transfusion — or other procedure — in order to have a better chance at living and quality of life, God’s for it.

Well, that explains why the Christians were taken to the Roman arenas and fed to hungry lions. Parents only had to place a pinch of incense on an alter as an act of worship to the Emperor to walk free, but they refused, so the whole family were torn apart by these beasts for public entertainment. Should the parents have done an act of worship to a foreign deity to save their children? It was unthinkable. They would have broken the first commandment.

Want scripture.....or isn't it relevant to what you want to believe?
Now I'm curious (JW) Deal breaker

Martyrs are praised in the Bible.....God did not even spare his own son.....so I think your argument kinda falls apart. When you trust the one who made the request, you can do even the unthinkable....like Abraham.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How wonderful!
We've got an Atheist here who believes in Evil!
Now that's a turn up for the 'unusual', if I may say so.

And you keep trying to place the goal posts just nicely for you.
One burden of proof that 'm establishing very quickly is that you didn't have a clue about the thousands killed, nor the thousands whose lives have been messed up by transfusions, and it doesn't look as if you will give a moment's thought about them. But here you are, hunting down the JW cases ....... the really 'evil' ones!

Oh dear How they give themselves up!

What are you talking about? Why do you think that atheists do not understand the concept of evil? You seem to have some very strange beliefs. In fact the problem of evil is a very good indication that there is no god, and definitely not the God of the Bible.

You can turn through the 7 million JWs for your cases.
Oh I do love it so! A CULT, even.!
What I think I can show to all here is that you have a high level of prejudice against JWs.

They are an EVIL CULT according to you, an atheist!

Yes, they are obviously a cult. Do you not know what a cult is? Please do not be insulted by reality. And you still seem to be terribly confused.

And you've got that wrong as well.
You take a dreadfully poor analogy, quite irrational I think, and you even get that wrong.

The answer is YES! We do! Where I live (and next door in France) we do!
Now, since you've changed the subject, and fallen flat over on it as well, would you like me to explain just how that brings about a 'Yes' answer? It's 'Off Piste' of course, but I don't expect the OP will mind a brief answer if you ask for it.
Are you really interested? I'd be pleased to enlighten you on the above situations.
Just ask.

No, that was a very good analogy. Your cult kills people only occasionally. That was what your argument was whether you realize it or not. And why keep making false claims? With excessive exclamation points to boot.

I was interested in an honest conversation. Who knows, I might still get one if you can get over being butt hurt by facts.

 

[Subduction Zone]

But you can't debate very well, it seems.
You just keep falling over yourself.
EVIL! Really. An atheist's rational point, right there!

I cannot help it if you refuse to reason rationally. And quote mining is almost always a form of lying. Why did you do that?

Many thousands, if you please, have I got to trawl them up for you?
Many thousands?
Just count the HIV and Hepatitis infections if you like.....

That is only a few thousand. When did a few become many?

Don't suggest that I have refuted any of the saved cases.

You have not yet identified how many JWs have been saved by staying clear of transfusions, have you?

Not what I said, and that is why this is a strawman, another improper debating technique. I pointed out that you have ignored the saved cases. If you hadn't you would have refuted yourself so I can see why you chose that route.

And you change the subject and shift the burden of proof. Thank you for admitting that you are wrong twice.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Well, apparently its become somewhat of an obsession with you. What difference does it make to you what decisions we make for our children? Especially medical ones. That is our choice to make, just as yours is your choice to make. If you are not a parent, then please don't tell me how to make decisions for my children. I certainly won't be telling anyone else what to do with their children. There is no question of blood saving our lives...we have proven that its better to treat our medical situations without it. There are so many safer alternatives, why would you choose the most dangerous?

I didn't know RF questions need to be personal. Curiosity does not mean I have an emotional investment in this. You're shifting the goal post and making it personal.

Atheist parents raise their children without God and that is their right and choice until the child is of age. They can make whatever decisions they like for their minor children and we reserve the same right. Not every child raised as a JW will choose to become one. No one has a right to determine a child's faith except the child itself.

Yes. I understand that. It has nothing to do with my question, though. I'm asking about JW conviction between their faith and the life of the person they care for.

Blood does not really "save" anyone. We have proven that very low hemoglobin levels can be tolerated as long as saline blood expanders keep the volume up and the red cells that are left, are kept circulating. If you watched the video you would know this.

I know. I said take blood transfusions out since that's getting at you. It's just an example of an unbiblical procedure and whether JW will choose the unbiblical procedure (regardless what it is) or their child's life.

Why do you keep on with this? I already stated quite clearly in a previous post that I will always obey God first....and why. I explained about our attitude towards death. It is strange to me that people morbidly fear death when it will come to all of us eventually. We are all gonna die. We have no fear of it.
Do you not read what is written in your own thread?

You came into this thread knowing what I asked and the direction of the threads posts. I didn't pull you into a debate.

You've also posted your first post/reply to my OP as an argumentative. I never read "that" first post because of it.

Also, separate the quotes and start from the top and work my way down. So if there is a question at the top that you've already answered in the lower quotes, I didn't catch it. It's too tedious to go up and down figuring out what's said so I have to chop it up and read the whole post (yours and others).

What???? We make no decisions for anyone's child but our own.....got it?

I didn't want to make it personal by saying "your child" or loved one.

 

[Deeje]

And 'Yes' some JWs do permit transfusions with their own blood, previously prepared:-

Actually it was against God's law to store blood for any reason. It was to be poured out on the ground when an animal was slaughtered, symbolically returning its life to God. So we will not store even of our own blood.

JW's will accept "cell salvage" which is to keep one's own blood in continuous circulation, such as in a heart/lung machine during surgery. Some surgeries that result in severe blood loss have been successful using this method.The blood lost in surgery is siphoned off and fed into a machine that keeps it in continuous circulation.
Hemodilution is another procedure that has worked well with Witness patients.

'However, a minority of Jehovah’s Witnesses do not agree that the Bible prohibits blood transfusions, and will therefore accept transfusions.

No OB, we are united on this. There is no way to avoid the command to "abstain from blood" (Acts 15:28-29) if we merely change the method of consumption. No genuine Witness of Jehovah will break God's law.

Some Jehovah’s Witnesses may also believe that it is acceptable to receive blood plasma fractions or the reinfusion of their own blood. Given the divergent beliefs about receiving blood amongst followers of the religion, it is imperative that the view of each individual Jehovah’s Witness patient on this aspect be carefully canvassed by the treating practitioner.'

Again, we keep to the rule that blood is made up of four primary components, so we would refuse all four. Where we may become 'divergent' is in the matter of minute blood fractions, which did not exist until fairly recent times. These are a conscience matter. For me personally, if the fraction passes from mother to child in-utero, then I see no worry about a minute fraction which is of itself not blood. But someone else may have a different opinion. We are not to judge the conscience of another in this matter, but we are united on the four basic components.

More doctors today are willing to cater to our beliefs because the medical outcomes are better anyway.

The ignorant talk of some here should make them embarrassed to even comment. Bigotry is at work.....this is a non issue now, thankfully.

 

[sojourner]

Well, that explains why the Christians were taken to the Roman arenas and fed to hungry lions. Parents only had to place a pinch of incense on an alter as an act of worship to the Emperor to walk free, but they refused, so the whole family were torn apart by these beasts for public entertainment. Should the parents have done an act of worship to a foreign deity to save their children? It was unthinkable. They would have broken the first commandment.

Want scripture.....or isn't it relevant to what you want to believe?
Now I'm curious (JW) Deal breaker

Martyrs are praised in the Bible.....God did not even spare his own son.....so I think your argument kinda falls apart. When you trust the one who made the request, you can do even the unthinkable....like Abraham.

There’s a difference between retracting ones faith in light of political oppression and getting a transfusion upon considered medical counsel. I think it’s a gross misinterpretation. The Bible does not literally say, “Thou shalt not receive a transfusion.”

 

[Deeje]

There’s a difference between retracting ones faith in light of political oppression and getting a transfusion upon considered medical counsel. I think it’s a gross misinterpretation. The Bible does not literally say, “Thou shalt not receive a transfusion.”

That is hilarious.....as if the Bible would say that 2000 years ago?

Both instances involve breaking God's law to save a life.....the Christian martyrs in effect put God's law before saving their own skin (or in this case the lives of their children). Remember the devil tested Job for the very same thing. (Job 2:3-5) What will a man give to save his own life? Jesus said if you save your life by breaking God's law, you will lose it. (post #19)

God's law on blood was restated three times in the scriptures. The first time with Noah when he was given permission to eat animal flesh, he was to bleed the animal before consuming it.....but it also included the shedding of human blood. (Genesis 9:3-6)
It was next mentioned in God's law to Israel. (Leviticus 17:10-12)
Then finally it was restated to the Christians, particularly the Gentile Christians who previously had no such prohibition. (Acts 15:28-29) It was equated with sexual immorality......no strangled animal could be consumed (not properly bled) and it was said they must "abstain" from blood. Could an alcoholic be told that if he keeps drinking he will die, but if he infuses it straight into his veins then that is OK?

Blood is sacred....and its use was only for the atonement of sin. Since feeding the body when food by mouth is not possible, intravenous feeding involves putting liquid nutrition straight into the veins. How then is a blood transfusion not the same as eating it? God makes his laws for a reason and to us, they are not negotiable.

You can do whatever you like.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Which makes me wonder in this off and maybe judged as a ridiculous question. In Judaism, can Jews receive blood transfusion? If it's considered eating blood and from human flesh (as default) would that be the same as Jews rejecting human sacrifice in christianity?

 

[Heyo]

We are asked to exercise our conscience in all things. When there is specific law, we follow it....when there are principles to be applied, we apply them.

The Bible's prohibition is on blood specifically. All else is up to us.

I guess that is as much as I'll get from you. Let me summarize:
You want letting people die be a non-issue and cite advancements in science.
You refuse to contemplate realistic, hypothetical situations like being somewhere where modern advancements are not available.
But aside from the red herrings there is still your determination to not break the laws of the JW governing body:

• You would let somebody die, even your child, before breaking JW law.
• You would fight other people who are going to help. (I assume you mean fighting in court. As I remember you are against physical violence and killing people actively. Only letting them die is OK.)
• You wouldn't feel relieved when somebody else saved your child against your will.

 

[oldbadger]

What are you talking about?

I'll keep it simple for you.
In this one debate, over this single subject matter and one religion,, you have shown Hot, Irrational, Hatred.... which has stopped your logic as dead as the Dodo.
And that can show some readers how the most rational and methodical of folks can 'lose it' in emotional feeling.
Don't worry about it. You can't see it but some others will.

Why do you think that atheists do not understand the concept of evil?

Satan's Spawn, eh?

You seem to have some very strange beliefs.

Sure. I'm a Deist.

Yes, they are obviously a cult. Do you not know what a cult is?

Of course I do! A 'Cult' is a 'brand' which Steaming Hatred applies to any groups which it wants to belittle, eliminate, destroy.

Please do not be insulted by reality. And you still seem to be terribly confused.

Indeed. When folks get stopped in their determined paths, having chucked down their strawman-card as some kind of Trump and failed, having insisted on their rationality despite their red hot heat, they often leave me quite amazed.

AND........ having been asked 'What do you want to do?' they often fail to give any kind of answer.

No, that was a very good analogy.

It was pathetic, and unhelpful for your debate, because I can think of at least three kinds of murder (here) which are either released immediately, or within a very short time, or under 20 years, all classed as 'No Threat to the Community'.

Your cult kills people only occasionally.

Your heated blinkered red hot anger has yet again blinded you to reality.
I'm a Deist so individual that I would be charmed, absolutely charmed to have enough fellow believers as to be classed as a Cult.

And I am not a JW. You even need to weld debate opponents to the Branded religion which you hate so much.
This is all very 'telling'.

And why keep making false claims? With excessive exclamation points to boot.

Let me say this....... if this debate was in community hall with gathered audience, you would even criticize my hair style, my shoes.


What you don't understand, although I don't know for sure..... is that it is quite possible that millions of Americans might call you a mass baby killer. That would just depend on whether you believe in abortions or not.

JWs believe what they believe, absolutely, unflinchingly, totally, even unto death, as the Nazi concentration camps showed so clearly. They live their beliefs, and in this particular kind of situation they might, just might lose the occasional believer through transfusion refusal, but in most countries we now have children's Acts which can protect those not old enough to make their own choices.

I don't follow their beliefs but I would certainly say that they have a right to them.


NOW........ what did you want to do about transfusion refusals?

 

[Subduction Zone]

I'll keep it simple for you.
In this one debate, over this single subject matter and one religion,, you have shown Hot, Irrational, Hatred.... which has stopped your logic as dead as the Dodo.
And that can show some readers how the most rational and methodical of folks can 'lose it' in emotional feeling.
Don't worry about it. You can't see it but some others will.


Satan's Spawn, eh?


Sure. I'm a Deist.


Of course I do! A 'Cult' is a 'brand' which Steaming Hatred applies to any groups which it wants to belittle, eliminate, destroy.


Indeed. When folks get stopped in their determined paths, having chucked down their strawman-card as some kind of Trump and failed, having insisted on their rationality despite their red hot heat, they often leave me quite amazed.

AND........ having been asked 'What do you want to do?' they often fail to give any kind of answer.


It was pathetic, and unhelpful for your debate, because I can think of at least three kinds of murder (here) which are either released immediately, or within a very short time, or under 20 years, all classed as 'No Threat to the Community'.


Your heated blinkered red hot anger has yet again blinded you to reality.
I'm a Deist so individual that I would be charmed, absolutely charmed to have enough fellow believers as to be classed as a Cult.

And I am not a JW. You even need to weld debate opponents to the Branded religion which you hate so much.
This is all very 'telling'.


Let me say this....... if this debate was in community hall with gathered audience, you would even criticize my hair style, my shoes.


What you don't understand, although I don't know for sure..... is that it is quite possible that millions of Americans might call you a mass baby killer. That would just depend on whether you believe in abortions or not.

JWs believe what they believe, absolutely, unflinchingly, totally, even unto death, as the Nazi concentration camps showed so clearly. They live their beliefs, and in this particular kind of situation they might, just might lose the occasional believer through transfusion refusal, but in most countries we now have children's Acts which can protect those not old enough to make their own choices.

I don't follow their beliefs but I would certainly say that they have a right to them.


NOW........ what did you want to do about transfusion refusals?

Try again without the laughably false claims. Those claims.appear to describe you.

Do you think you can do it?. I know that the truth hurts at times. I am sure the fact that JWism is a cult is exceptionally galling, but if you look up the traits of a cult, JWism has them in spades.

 

[oldbadger]

Actually it was against God's law to store blood for any reason. It was to be poured out on the ground when an animal was slaughtered, symbolically returning its life to God. So we will not store even of our own blood.

JW's will accept "cell salvage" which is to keep one's own blood in continuous circulation, such as in a heart/lung machine during surgery. Some surgeries that result in severe blood loss have been successful using this method.The blood lost in surgery is siphoned off and fed into a machine that keeps it in continuous circulation.
Hemodilution is another procedure that has worked well with Witness patients.

There you are..... you taught me something, blood circulating through a machine is 'ok' for you folks.
Fair Enough.

No OB, we are united on this. There is no way to avoid the command to "abstain from blood" (Acts 15:28-29) if we merely change the method of consumption. No genuine Witness of Jehovah will break God's law.

Again, we keep to the rule that blood is made up of four primary components, so we would refuse all four. Where we may become 'divergent' is in the matter of minute blood fractions, which did not exist until fairly recent times. These are a conscience matter. For me personally, if the fraction passes from mother to child in-utero, then I see no worry about a minute fraction which is of itself not blood. But someone else may have a different opinion. We are not to judge the conscience of another in this matter, but we are united on the four basic components.

More doctors today are willing to cater to our beliefs because the medical outcomes are better anyway.

The ignorant talk of some here should make them embarrassed to even comment. Bigotry is at work.....this is a non issue now, thankfully.

I don't have to agree with you, Deeje. All I have to do is to say that I acknowledge your beliefs and would leave you your freedom of actions, decisions and determinations.

Please see this point........ there's this strange situation here....... let me guess that a majority of those debating against JWs on this thread are either agnostics or atheists who in fact might well be debating in favour of abortion in some other thread. So I know that millions and millions of people all over the World do actually call the majority of these people 'Mass Baby Killers'. And I don't fight these member's beliefs either, although my late wife and I gave up our safe home and my safe job over our third child, lost the lot in favour of what we both believed we should do, and then lost him one month after birth. We didn't plump for abortion then, and it cost us so much, so I don't believe in all of what they might do either.

Strange. Folks branded by others as Mass Baby Killers trying to stamp upon other folks whose beliefs might lose a child every decade or so. It's all nuts.

 

[oldbadger]

Try again without the laughably false claims. Those claims.appear to describe you.

Do you think you can do it?. I know that the truth hurts at times. I am sure the fact that JWism is a cult is exceptionally galling, but if you look up the traits of a cult, JWism has them in spades.

Yeah Yeah.......

Now..... So....... WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Yeah Yeah.......

Now..... So....... WHAT WOULD YOU DO?

Can you debate properly?

 

[oldbadger]

Can you debate properly?

And there we have it.
All that foaming challenging, heated accusation, and when actually asked what you would like to do about JWs refusing blood transfusions.......

You're stuffed. Haven't got a clue.
All this was hot air.

Or can you answer?

 

[Subduction Zone]

And there we have it.
All that foaming challenging, heated accusation, and when actually asked what you would like to do about JWs refusing blood transfusions.......

You're stuffed. Haven't got a clue.
All this was hot air.

Or can you answer?

I will take that as a "no" since all you have are personal attacks and falsehoods.

 

[Deeje]

I guess that is as much as I'll get from you. Let me summarize:
You want letting people die be a non-issue and cite advancements in science.
You refuse to contemplate realistic, hypothetical situations like being somewhere where modern advancements are not available.
But aside from the red herrings there is still your determination to not break the laws of the JW governing body:

• You would let somebody die, even your child, before breaking JW law.
• You would fight other people who are going to help. (I assume you mean fighting in court. As I remember you are against physical violence and killing people actively. Only letting them die is OK.)
• You wouldn't feel relieved when somebody else saved your child against your will.

Oh good grief.....what do you care if we choose to obey God? Is it any skin off your nose? Is it harming you or your children in any way? Who made you our judges?

Read my responses...I've explained all that I am going to.
Your ignorance is unbelievable.

Haters gonna hate.....

 

[Heyo]

Strange. Folks branded by others as Mass Baby Killers trying to stamp upon other folks whose beliefs might lose a child every decade or so. It's all nuts.

Strange. People who argue that a fetus is not something the mother should be able to decide about also argue that they should be able to decide about a child's fate 'till they are 18, including letting them die.