Now that the door is open, where does it close?

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Marissa, I didn't say it was wrong; I said it was counterproductive.

Here is what Phil said:

"It seems like, to me, a vagina—as a man—would be more desirable than a man's anus. That's just me, I'm just thinking: There's more there! She's got more to offer. I mean, come on, dudes! You know what I'm saying? But hey, sin: It's not logical, my man. It's just not logical."

The duck hunter also linked homosexuality to bestiality and rattled off a number of other stereotypes.

NOW, this is what GLAAD said:

"Phil and his family claim to be Christian, but Phil's lies about an entire community fly in the face of what true Christians believe. He clearly knows nothing about gay people or the majority of Louisianans—and Americans—who support legal recognition for loving and committed gay and lesbian couples. Phil's decision to push vile and extreme stereotypes is a stain on A&E and his sponsors who now need to reexamine their ties to someone with such public disdain for LGBT people and families."

Where is the education regarding why homosexuality and bestiality are not linked?
Where is the information presented to Phil and his listeners about who gay people really are rather than the misinformation Phil holds to be true?

It's not there.

Phil was simply called Unchristian, Unamerican, Vile, and a few other choice words, told to "shut up" and "get out of the town square". That's my point. Phil's words were not publicly "examined" and the flaws publicized. Phil's "arguments" were not countered. Hell, the very tactic used in calling Phil everything except a human being is no different -- no different -- than the treatment we used to receive, where we were (and sometimes still are) called subhuman and abominations and sinners; and the threatened boycott of A&E and their sponsors is no different -- no different -- than the boycotts businesses received from the populace against our own places of work if our sexual orientations were discovered.The gay community didn't even try to educate. And even if Phil was unteachable, there are his followers who may have heard the message.So Phil and his followers heard nothing. No new information was presented. No old information represented. No public "examination" of his claims were conducted and no rebuttal presented.No one's minds were changed and no one learned anything they didn't already know; except possibly to fear the gay community because of their political muscle.

That is counterproductive to our cause as there was no effort for understanding between us and the religious community, and intimidating another individual or group does nothing but foster resentment.

 

[Marisa]

Please quote me, or tag me, otherwise I don't get a notification.

Marissa, I didn't say it was wrong; I said it was counterproductive.

Here is what Phil said:


NOW, this is what GLAAD said:


Where is the education regarding why homosexuality and bestiality are not linked?
Where is the information presented to Phil and his listeners about who gay people really are rather than the misinformation Phil holds to be true?

There is more than one council/foundation/activist group addressing the LGBT issue. Here's what the HRC had to say:

"
“Phil Robertson’s remarks are not consistent with the values of our faith communities or the scientific findings of leading medical organizations. We know that being gay is not a choice someone makes, and that to suggest otherwise can be incredibly harmful. We also know that Americans of faith follow the Golden Rule – treating others with the respect and dignity you’d wish to be treated with. As a role model on a show that attracts millions of viewers, Phil Robertson has a responsibility to set a positive example for young Americans – not shame and ridicule them because of who they are.

“The A+E Network should take immediate action to condemn Phil Robertson’s remarks and make clear they don’t support his views.

“2013 has been a year of tremendous progress for equality across the entire country. We’ve seen straight Americans stand up for their LGBT friends and loved ones like never before – showing their support for marriage equality in communities across the country, lobbying their lawmakers for equal workplace protections for their LGBT neighbors, and standing shoulder-to-shoulder with us against hate crimes targeting people just for who they loved. I hope young people hurt by Phil Robertson’s comments remember these victories rather than his callous words. This is a reminder that our work of changing hearts and minds is far from complete.”
Tell ‘Duck Dynasty’ Star: Being Gay Isn’t a Sin – Or a Choice | Human Rights Campaign

Phil was simply called Unchristian, Unamerican, Vile, and a few other choice words, told to "shut up" and "get out of the town square". That's my point. Phil's words were not publicly "examined" and the flaws publicized. Phil's "arguments" were not countered. Hell, the very tactic used in calling Phil everything except a human being is no different -- no different -- than the treatment we used to receive, where we were (and sometimes still are) called subhuman and abominations and sinners; and the threatened boycott of A&E and their sponsors is no different -- no different -- than the boycotts businesses received from the populace against our own places of work if our sexual orientations were discovered.The gay community didn't even try to educate. And even if Phil was unteachable, there are his followers who may have heard the message.So Phil and his followers heard nothing. No new information was presented. No old information represented. No public "examination" of his claims were conducted and no rebuttal presented.No one's minds were changed and no one learned anything they didn't already know; except possibly to fear the gay community because of their political muscle.

That is counterproductive to our cause as there was no effort for understanding between us and the religious community, and intimidating another individual or group does nothing but foster resentment.

I'm gonna disagree here as well. If an individual speaks and proclaims they do so from a perspective of love and concern, it's not inappropriate to point out that the words they use are condemnatory.

Bottom line: could more efforts be made to reach understanding? Of course. There's always going to be room for improvement. That's a noble goal to strive for and in truth, there probably isn't any wrong way to go about trying to reach people.

It's been really great having this conversation with you, I do appreciate your perspective!

 

[JoStories]

The self-loathing insecure types are generally the fear-mongers who unreasonably attack and misrepresent others.. who become easily offended etc.. like a wounded animal that you cannot help because they will bite your hand off if you reach out to them.

Those who are secure and self-confident tend to see the world through rosier glasses, tend to think the best of those around them - have trust/faith that everyone is just doing the best they can with what they have, that there is no need to go on the war-path etc. ...

I think it is pretty clear in this thread who the self-loathing insecure posters are...

That said, I do feel sorry for those who have been in bad situations. Please do not judge everyone (including organizations) based on limited bad experiences. Most people really are good - society would not have survived this long if goodness did not dominate.

I tend to agree with most of what you say here with the exception that there are those here that are self-loathing and insecure. I see nothing wrong with having differences of opinion and defending those opinions, sometimes strongly so. For example, if someone here were to advocate elder abuse, you would find that I would very strongly disagree with that opinion. And also, saying that someone is insecure, etc, does seem a tad judgmental, non?

 

[Marisa]

I was once where you are now, judging and thinking the worst of everyone except others like myself... Then I learned about metanoia, and I now see through rosier glasses.

If you see yourself as being perfect/infallible/right - the only way to protect this is to lash out and cognitively distance yourself from anyone else who has a different viewpoint, imagining up any excuse you can to see others as evil and protect your own self-image.

The more anyone is willing to accept that they might not be right in any particular viewpoint
(be it religious, non-religious, political, social etc.), the less cognitive dissonance exists, and the more that person is able to clearly see the intents and character of those around them.

Don't worry, I'm not upset at those who are trapped in their own realities unable to see anything other than what they want to see - we are all in our own realities to some extent. ...

brothers? I'm actually a sister your sister seeing how we're all children of the same Heavenly Father.

Joyce Brothers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

It's been really great having this conversation with you, I do appreciate your perspective!

Right back atcha!

 

[gabo7mgte]

Why is it that people get offended when you tell them the truth? My truth is in the bible.. And why is it the you want to change what's already written so you feel accepted? I don't hate anyone by all means. It seems homosexuals hate us Christians for believing and knowing and following Jesus as our God.

 

[dawny0826]

Since same sex marriage is legal they have now introduced into the public school system oral and anal sex education classes. What are your thoughts on this?

Here is what God says, just in case you're wondering.

1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.

Considering the fact that most sex education classes are opt in/opt out by parents, I'm not concerned. I doubt that many will have their religious rights violated with this education being introduced.

I see benefit to learning that sex isn't just about the missionary style relations of our grandparents. Kids need to understand what they need to do in any sexual situation to best protect themselves. Again, if this type of education isn't for you and your kids, I've a strong hunch that you'll be able to opt them out of it.

I don't believe that Christ would have posted 1 Corinthians 6 in red as you have. For what? To instill fear? To condemn?

 

[Looncall]

Why is it that people get offended when you tell them the truth? My truth is in the bible.. And why is it the you want to change what's already written so you feel accepted? I don't hate anyone by all means. It seems homosexuals hate us Christians for believing and knowing and following Jesus as our God.

You christians are trying to denying them equal rights. What else can you expect?

You need to realize that your superstitious taboos apply only to you and your fellow religionists.

 

[Marisa]

Why is it that people get offended when you tell them the truth? My truth is in the bible.. And why is it the you want to change what's already written so you feel accepted? I don't hate anyone by all means. It seems homosexuals hate us Christians for believing and knowing and following Jesus as our God.

You can do all of that without ever saying whether same sex couples should have the same rights you enjoy, or ever suggesting to a gay person that they are offensive in the sight of your god. But that's often not what christians do, is it? No, they say some pretty vile things about gays and call it love and concern for their eternal disposition, as if they are their god's personal mouthpiece.

 

[gabo7mgte]

You christians are trying to denying them equal rights. What else can you expect?

You need to realize that your superstitious taboos apply only to you and your fellow religionists. Not superstition, you seemed to be mad. Let's back up for a second. Marriage is a godly act between a man and a woman unite as one. If you don't believe in god why do you want this type of unity?

 

[SomeRandom]

You christians are trying to denying them equal rights. What else can you expect?

You need to realize that your superstitious taboos apply only to you and your fellow religionists. Not superstition, you seemed to be mad. Let's back up for a second. Marriage is a godly act between a man and a woman unite as one. If you don't believe in god why do you want this type of unity?

Because culturally speaking getting married to your significant other sends a strong message to your friends and family that you love this person deeply? That you want you and your significant other to declare their undying love for each other? Not to mention all sorts of government benefits?
Not everyone marries to appease God. Many couples marry because of the cultural significance of such an act. Married couples don't even need church approval. They can get married in a courthouse if they want.

 

[SomeRandom]

Why is it that people get offended when you tell them the truth? My truth is in the bible.. And why is it the you want to change what's already written so you feel accepted? I don't hate anyone by all means. It seems homosexuals hate us Christians for believing and knowing and following Jesus as our God.

Oh I don't know, why are Christians all upset at Muslims calling them infidels, rebels against God, saying they got God's word wrong and that they not the same worthiness as Muslim belief? I mean they don't hate anyone by all means, but it seems that Christians hate Muslims for believing and knowing and following Allah as their God.

Here's a tip, if you go up to a group of people, deliberately shame them as "abominations/evil/against God" then try to deny them the same rights as everybody else based on your interpretation of your Holy Book, chances are you won't be popular with them. It's almost like people don't like to be insulted, demeaned and denied rights. Imagine that.

 

[Looncall]

Marriage is a commitment between people. It does not necessarily involve your superstitions.

The religious have no business insisting that everyone measure their corn in the religious half-bushel.

 

[NewGuyOnTheBlock]

Why is it that people get offended when you tell them the truth? My truth is in the bible.. And why is it the you want to change what's already written so you feel accepted? I don't hate anyone by all means. It seems homosexuals hate us Christians for believing and knowing and following Jesus as our God.

You can follow God and your commandments as much as you like. I, as a gay man, do not "hate" you for that. Neither do I really "hate" Christians for pretty much any reason whatsoever.

But I do truly resent those members within the Christian faith who choose to use the laws of a secular law in a secular nation to force me to conform to your religious standards. I do not believe, I do not wish to live by your rules, I have every right in the world to NOT believe and live as I see fit. In fact, as your "god" game me "free will", I have a God Given Right to do so. What makes you think you have the right, let alone the responsibility, to take that God Given Right away from me? Who do you think you are? God Himself?

Read the Gospels again, bro. Jesus told you to "preach the gospel to every nation". The gospel has been preached. I have heard. I have decided, for many reasons, that I do not believe and I do not agree. Jesus did not tell you to wage a war against me; either literal or legal. He told you to "shake the dust from your feet".

So you mind what you do in your heart and your bedroom and get out of my bedroom. You have no right there and no business there.

 

[darkfae]

I want kids to be as educated as possible about sex, genitals, STIs, pregnancy and hormones. I live in Canada where same-sex marriage has been legal for a while but I've never seen gay sex been talked about in a sex ed class. Urp. If you're gay or bi you can still get STIs! Everyone should be well informed and prepared. Not educating our children is how we end up with unwanted and/or teenage pregnancies and widespread sexually transmitted infections.

 

[k4c]

Marriage is a commitment between people. It does not necessarily involve your superstitions.

The religious have no business insisting that everyone measure their corn in the religious half-bushel.

Marriage came from God, not man, so He has the right to define it. I don't understand why gays and atheists are making such a fuss over something created be God when they don't even believe in God.

 

[fantome profane]

Marriage came from God, not man, so He has the right to define it. I don't understand why gays and atheists are making such a fuss over something created be God when they don't even believe in God.

If you really don't understand then just try thinking about it for a moment from someone else's point of view.

You understand that not everybody believes in "God", and not everybody believes "Marriage came from God". Marriage is a secular institution, and it has always been a secular institution. You don't get to claim ownership of a secular institution just because you make up some creation myth.

This is no different than saying that no one else has the right to eat pizza because my God created pizza and ordained it as a religious food. I don't get to claim ownership of pizza just because I make up some story.

 

[SomeRandom]

Marriage came from God, not man, so He has the right to define it. I don't understand why gays and atheists are making such a fuss over something created be God when they don't even believe in God.

Because secular law affects EVERYONE not just God believers. You can define marriage however you want in Church, but a court of law has to define it for everyone and that everyone includes people who "don't even believe in God."

 

[Marisa]

Marriage came from God, not man, so He has the right to define it. I don't understand why gays and atheists are making such a fuss over something created be God when they don't even believe in God.

Have you studied the history of marriage outside your holy book? What you stated is patently false, since MOST cultures PREDATE your religion. Don't make yourself look ignorant by stating something that patently false to anyone who realizes that a whole world has existed before your religion.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Have you studied the history of marriage outside your holy book? What you stated is patently false, since MOST cultures PREDATE your religion. Don't make yourself look ignorant by stating something that patently false to anyone who realizes that a whole world has existed before your religion.

What religion predates the Flood of Noah's day, or predates Genesis 2:24 ?
Mankind in general traces its religious family tree's roots back to ancient Babylon - Genesis 10:9-10
Who existed before Adam and Eve? According to Scripture we all trace back to one of Noah's 3 sons.
Moses had the genealogical ' book of generations ' - Genesis 5:1 - which was from Adam and carried by Noah through the Flood.

However, there is Nothing in Scripture stating that Christian marriage should be forced on anyone.
The God of the Bible has given His standard, and we get the free-will choice to listen to God or Not.
If a person wants the opportunity to live forever (as was offered to Adam before his downfall ) then in order to live forever one would have to adopt God's standards.