Obama couldn't govern himself out of a wet paper bag

[Troublemane]

Lemme aks you a question, Matt. Say you have a household with 10 people in it. All of them are working, some make minimum wage, one or two make alot more. As long as they are all working, they find they can pay the bills PLUS have alot left over for steak dinner every night if they want. They go on vacations, pay for internet and cable TV in every room.

Now imagine that 5 of them get sick and can't work. It would be really difficult, but if they cut down their expenses maybe they can get through it without losing any of the luxuries they have become accustomed to. At least the two main income earners are still working, so they find they can get by.

A few weeks go by, and more of them are out of work. They have not cut back on spending, however, and so their credit cards are close to being maxed out. After another two weeks, only the top income earner is still working.

Eventually, even if the last person working works double shifts, he or she could never pay enough to cover just the interest on the debt accrued by the rest of the idiots in the house, who are continuing to spend as if they were still all working regular jobs. When the total income is less than what is needed to pay just the interest on the debt, the household goes bankrupt and the people in it are kicked out.

Thats what is going to happen to our country if we continue to spend like we are in a robust economy.

 

[Sunstone]

Thats what is going to happen to our country if we continue to spend like we are in a robust economy.

Ever hear of Keynes?

 

[LuisDantas]

Then why do atheists on this site always say that theists should separate their religious beliefs when dealing with politics? Are they saying that theists must be hypocrites to participate in the political process?

We are hardly unanimous in opinions about matters other than the existence of God, Apex. I don't think religious people should leave their beliefs aside when acting politically, if that helps any. Of course, nor do I think they should use belief as a justification for otherwise questionable actions.

 

[jamaesi]

That is it in a nut shell. Some folks don't believe in charity. They think that is the function of government. I call it the Robin Hood mentality.

They might romanticise Robin Hood, but the reality of the situation was, he still was a thief. :yes:

I didn't see the rich charitably giving to the needy in the Robin Hood stories. :sarcastic

No one's charity got me my private health insurance back nor did their charity pay for my medical expenses.

The government, however, is providing me with health care. Medicaid ftw.

I couldn't imagine what it would have been like had I had to rely on charity for my medical needs- oh, wait, I can imagine. I'd be dead. One less undeserving poor brown disabled woman though, so that would be a win for your side.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I can't possibly see how anyone's suffering would be a victory for "my side".

From what I am gathering here, your side is saying it is impossible to be a Christian and a Republican without being a hypocrite?

If you remember is the past, I have always maintained you should be eligable for medicaid and supported that action Jamaesi. Back then, you where going on about your mother making too much money and I told you you still could get medicaid once you where 18.

If it makes you feel any better, go ahead and demonise me in spite of the fact that I have changed my mind about gay marriage, support a woman's right to choose, and make lives better in my town by participating in charities that actually help folks.

Your reference to your skin color implies to me that you also believe that all conservatives are racist as well.

I hope I am wrong about that. I really do.

 

[Magic Man]

Then why do atheists on this site always say that theists should separate their religious beliefs when dealing with politics? Are they saying that theists must be hypocrites to participate in the political process?

Nope. That's a bit of different situation. When atheists tell theists that, it's in reference to things like same-sex marriage and abortion.

First, what makes Rick's views hypocritical is the fact that they contradict each other. If he was liberal, it wouldn't matter if he separated his religious and political views because they'd line up with each other. So, he wouldn't be hypocritical in that case. It's only because his political views are conservative that they are hypocritical.

Second, what I'm talking about is a general life philosophy, not views on specific issues like same-sex marriage or abortion. We're talking about helping people in need or not helping people in need.

 

[Magic Man]

Lemme aks you a question, Matt. Say you have a household with 10 people in it. All of them are working, some make minimum wage, one or two make alot more. As long as they are all working, they find they can pay the bills PLUS have alot left over for steak dinner every night if they want. They go on vacations, pay for internet and cable TV in every room.

Now imagine that 5 of them get sick and can't work. It would be really difficult, but if they cut down their expenses maybe they can get through it without losing any of the luxuries they have become accustomed to. At least the two main income earners are still working, so they find they can get by.

A few weeks go by, and more of them are out of work. They have not cut back on spending, however, and so their credit cards are close to being maxed out. After another two weeks, only the top income earner is still working.

Eventually, even if the last person working works double shifts, he or she could never pay enough to cover just the interest on the debt accrued by the rest of the idiots in the house, who are continuing to spend as if they were still all working regular jobs. When the total income is less than what is needed to pay just the interest on the debt, the household goes bankrupt and the people in it are kicked out.

Thats what is going to happen to our country if we continue to spend like we are in a robust economy.

I'm sorry. What does this have to do with anything? I know it's supposed to be analogy for what's happening in this country, but it's a poor analogy, and it's unrelated to anything we've been talking about here. Not that that's surprising. That's a very common tactic of yours and Rick's. It's hard to have a real debate because you don't stick to the relevant topics, but instead go off on tangents because you're only arguing with emotions, not reason.

 

[Magic Man]

We are hardly unanimous in opinions about matters other than the existence of God, Apex. I don't think religious people should leave their beliefs aside when acting politically, if that helps any. Of course, nor do I think they should use belief as a justification for otherwise questionable actions.

Yeah, I think the point of saying theists should separate their beliefs is that when trying to justify legislation, religious reasons aren't acceptable. For instance, when trying to justify banning same-sex marriage, saying "The Bible says it's wrong" isn't good enough mainly because we are supposed to have separation of church and state. You would have to provide a reasonable justification aside from your religious beliefs.

On the other hand, when talking about general economic policy, you shouldn't be arguing against your religious views. With same-sex marriage, even if you think homosexuality is a sin, it's a question of people's rights. And realizing that while you think it's wrong, that's not a good reason for people not to be able to do it doesn't go against your religious beliefs. Arguing that we shouldn't help people in need goes against your religious belief that we should help everyone in need no matter what.

 

[Magic Man]

From what I am gathering here, your side is saying it is impossible to be a Christian and a Republican without being a hypocrite?

I'm not sure why you'd direct this at jamaesi, since I am the one arguing this, although this isn't even my argument, not that that should stop you from pretending it is. You can be a republican and Christian without being a hypocrite. What you can't do is hold your economic/political views which conservatives tend to hold and be a Christian without being a hypocrite.

If it makes you feel any better, go ahead and demonise me in spite of the fact that I have changed my mind about gay marriage, support a woman's right to choose, and make lives better in my town by participating in charities that actually help folks.

What does any of this have to do with anything? It's like saying "Go ahead and demonize me for believing gay couples shouldn't be allowed to marry, even though I support black people's rights, give to charity and work at a soup kitchen". Who cares? No one is saying you're a horrible person; we're just arguing against your views, which can be very harsh towards poor people.

 

[Reverend Rick]

We're talking about helping people in need or not helping people in need.

I'm glad you cleared that up. I'm helping people in need. I just don't think the government is very good at helping people.

I guess Jesus should have never helped anyone himself. He should have left that to Caesar.

 

[Magic Man]

I'm glad you cleared that up. I'm helping people in need. I just don't think the government is very good at helping people.

Well, then you're ignorant. The government does a good job of helping people in need. It could do a better job. As has been explained in this very thread, private enterprise isn't sufficient to help people in need. Your opinion that it could is woefully misguided.

I guess Jesus should have never helped anyone himself. He should have left that to Caesar.

Nope, he should have helped people and supported political programs that helped people, even if it seemed unfair to some.

 

[waitasec]

private enterprise isn't sufficient to help people in need.

i was discussing the taxation of the rich the other day and this person said, if we were to tax the rich at a higher scale then they would stop giving to charities...
i wish i had a reply to that at that moment...
don't the rich get tax breaks when they give to certain charities?


on a different note...
the "obamacare" debacle was thrown out of it's orbit because of the "socialistic" rhetoric going around that was based on fallacy. i hope now the public option will be on the table again in hopes it will replace that silly mandate...

 

[Troublemane]

Well, then you're ignorant. The government does a good job of helping people in need. It could do a better job. As has been explained in this very thread, private enterprise isn't sufficient to help people in need. Your opinion that it could is woefully misguided.

He's close to converting to right-wing conservatism, Rick. I can feel it!

Matt, turn to the dark side! You know you want to! :angel2:

 

[jamaesi]

I can't possibly see how anyone's suffering would be a victory for "my side".

From what I am gathering here, your side is saying it is impossible to be a Christian and a Republican without being a hypocrite?

If you remember is the past, I have always maintained you should be eligable for medicaid and supported that action Jamaesi. Back then, you where going on about your mother making too much money and I told you you still could get medicaid once you where 18.

If it makes you feel any better, go ahead and demonise me in spite of the fact that I have changed my mind about gay marriage, support a woman's right to choose, and make lives better in my town by participating in charities that actually help folks.

Your reference to your skin color implies to me that you also believe that all conservatives are racist as well.

I hope I am wrong about that. I really do.

I'm 23, dude. I was what, 21-22 then? I'm a little past 18. As I still live with her, her income is counted- until finally someone with a little heart at the welfare office took some pity on me and shuffled around some paperwork in juuuuust the right way to get me in. Again, did charity do this for me? No.


The rest of your posts just reeks of VALIDATE ME so here you go, have a cookie. In face, have two.

Now that you have been properly cookied can you please get to my point? What charity is providing comprehensive medical care to needy US citizens like Medicaid is? Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could have the same access to it if they needed it without going through the ******** I did?

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm 23, dude. I was what, 21-22 then? I'm a little past 18. As I still live with her, her income is counted- until finally someone with a little heart at the welfare office took some pity on me and shuffled around some paperwork in juuuuust the right way to get me in. Again, did charity do this for me? No.


The rest of your posts just reeks of VALIDATE ME so here you go, have a cookie. In face, have two.

Now that you have been properly cookied can you please get to my point? What charity is providing comprehensive medical care to needy US citizens like Medicaid is? Wouldn't it be awesome if everyone could have the same access to it if they needed it without going through the ******** I did?

You play a vicious race card, & then you get all snarky & sarcastic when he objects to it?
Criminy....what's this place come'n too?

 

[jamaesi]

You play a vicious race card, & then you get all snarky & sarcastic when he objects to it?
Criminy....what's this place come'n too?

Someone is jellus they don't get a cookie :'C You can read this instead.

 

[darkendless]

Whats the big deal with public health care? I was completely turned off visiting the USA after my dad had to spend 1000's just to see a doctor because he got sick over there on holiday.

 

[waitasec]

Whats the big deal with public health care? I was completely turned off visiting the USA after my dad had to spend 1000's just to see a doctor because he got sick over there on holiday.

$$$ talks bull**it walks in the land of opportunity...

 

[darkendless]

$$$ talks bull**it walks in the land of opportunity...

Isn't the USA like the only 1st world country without public health care?

 

[waitasec]

Isn't the USA like the only 1st world country without public health care?

however 1st world country is not really accurate. we are becoming a 3rd world country because of the growing gap between the middle class and the upper class... and china pretty much owns us