Obama Moves away from 'Freedom of Religion'

[Terrywoodenpic]

When the pilgrim fathers sailed to America It was exactly because of freedom of worship that they left their homes. None of them were other than Christian in some form. However they were not free to worship as they chose in the Old World.
There were an almost infinitely small number of early settlers that were other than Christian.
It was probably not till the arrival of the rail roads, that the first significant numbers of other religions arrived, in the form of the Chinese rail gangs. They were thought of as heathen by most of Christian America.
Probably the only other significant religious people were the the liberal Unitarians, and other mainly agnostic groups of thinkers.

America started out as a truly Christian Country.

 

[tumbleweed41]

When the pilgrim fathers sailed to America It was exactly because of freedom of worship that they left their homes. None of them were other than Christian in some form. However they were not free to worship as they chose in the Old World.
There were an almost infinitely small number of early settlers that were other than Christian.
It was probably not till the arrival of the rail roads, that the first significant numbers of other religions arrived, in the form of the Chinese rail gangs. They were thought of as heathen by most of Christian America.
Probably the only other significant religious people were the the liberal Unitarians, and other mainly agnostic groups of thinkers.

America started out as a truly Christian Country.

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/historical-debates/94546-myths-america.html

 

[tumbleweed41]

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom.
Less than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/historical-debates/94546-myths-america.html

Interesting that they miss out the Pilgrim fathers entirely.....
Even the people they mention include only Christians and non believers as I did.

The eastern religions and even Jews are not mentioned at all.
They are not pointing out a myth... they are re-writing history.

To peoples of that time "religions" as a term, was understood to mean Christian religions... all the rest were heathens or unbelievers.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Interesting that they miss out the Pilgrim fathers entirely.....

Less than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The first colony of English-speaking Europeans was Jamestown, settled in 1609 for trade, not religious freedom.
Less than half of the 102 Mayflower passengers in 1620 were "Pilgrims" seeking religious freedom.

Quite true, Jamestown may have been one of the first English settlements and probably had the least permanent number of descendent's.

Mayflowers Passengers came from a number of oppressed congregations plus a number of hangers on and adventurers. However in those days it would have been hard to find anyone in England who did not profess Christianity. A majority of those who were not "Pilgrims" would have been members of the Church of England. Sailors who came with them would have been very religious, if rather uncouth.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

When the pilgrim fathers sailed to America It was exactly because of freedom of worship that they left their homes. None of them were other than Christian in some form. However they were not free to worship as they chose in the Old World.

Yes - because for the Puritans, part of "worshipping as they chose" included imposing their beliefs on everyone around them.

There were an almost infinitely small number of early settlers that were other than Christian.
It was probably not till the arrival of the rail roads, that the first significant numbers of other religions arrived, in the form of the Chinese rail gangs. They were thought of as heathen by most of Christian America.
Probably the only other significant religious people were the the liberal Unitarians, and other mainly agnostic groups of thinkers.

Never mind the strong undercurrent of deism and anti-Christian sentiment that was present around the time of the Revolution.

America started out as a truly Christian Country.

No - to the extent that it was a religious country at all, it was a patchwork of different denominations and curtailment of religious freedom, especially religious freedom of other Christians.

Christianity in the American colonies was generally a matter of promoting some preferred denomination to the detriment of other denominations. The United States has just as much of a tradition of persecuting Christians as it does promoting Christianity.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Yet, 156 years later, America's founders rejected the Christian and British Monarchy inspired Mayflower Compact, and founded a nation where the government was explicitly forbidden from endorsing any religion, or prohibiting citizens from practicing any religion they so chose.

(That's 156 years from British Colonization to the American Nation)

So while the British Colonies in North America were under both the Church of England and the British Monarchy, along with local Christian religious communities, at no time was America a Christian Nation.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yes - because for the Puritans, part of "worshipping as they chose" included imposing their beliefs on everyone around them.

As it was for Catholics and Anglicans of the time. King James tried and faild to bring the churches closer, but would have hung you for not going to church.


Never mind the strong undercurrent of deism and anti-Christian sentiment that was present around the time of the Revolution.

That was Much later and had taken hold in Europe too. In 1620 deism was not on the agenda, and it was dangerous not to be an active Christian.


No - to the extent that it was a religious country at all, it was a patchwork of different denominations and curtailment of religious freedom, especially religious freedom of other Christians.

As it was in Europe. But they were Christian

Christianity in the American colonies was generally a matter of promoting some preferred denomination to the detriment of other denominations. The United States has just as much of a tradition of persecuting Christians as it does promoting Christianity.

That is a practice they brought with them from Europe where it was the norm.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Yet, 156 years later, America's founders rejected the Christian and British Monarchy inspired Mayflower Compact, and founded a nation where the government was explicitly forbidden from endorsing any religion, or prohibiting citizens from practicing any religion they so chose.

(That's 156 years from British Colonization to the American Nation)

So while the British Colonies in North America were under both the Church of England and the British Monarchy, along with local Christian religious communities, at no time was America a Christian Nation.

By any religion ...read... any denomination, there were no other religions except Christian on the continent, nor was it ever contemplated that there might be.

America after independance did not have an established religion, however its people were Christian. Every small community had its Church. This survives to this day in small town America.

 

[tumbleweed41]

By any religion ...read... any denomination, there were no other religions except Christian on the continent, nor was it ever contemplated that there might be.

Quite a bold and Euro-centric statement. No other religions on the continent? Really?
Notice how easily you dismiss North Americas first settlers.
The point being, how far do you go back?
156 years to the Mayflower?
430 years to Norse settlements?
Or thousands of years to the initial Asian immigration and settling of the Americas?

Better yet, when speaking about the United States of America, one should focus on the actual founding in 1776.

(Or shall we discuss the "original" religions and beliefs of settlers to the British Isles?)

 

[tumbleweed41]

America after independance did not have an established religion, however its people were Christian. Every small community had its Church. This survives to this day in small town America.

No, not all people were Christian. America was founding during the height of the Enlightenment. As evidenced by many of the founding fathers, there was a distinct rejection of Christian dogma at that time by educated and literate Americans.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Believe what you like If it makes you happy.
But the USA and all Europe were by a vast majority , Practising Christians, certainly up to the end of WW1, It was still about 80% true at the end of WW2.

There was certainly an Intelligentsia from the late 17 th century who were debating the agnostic card. But the man in the street was hardly involved.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Quite a bold and Euro-centric statement. No other religions on the continent? Really?
Notice how easily you dismiss North Americas first settlers.
The point being, how far do you go back?
156 years to the Mayflower?
430 years to Norse settlements?
Or thousands of years to the initial Asian immigration and settling of the Americas?

Better yet, when speaking about the United States of America, one should focus on the actual founding in 1776.

(Or shall we discuss the "original" religions and beliefs of settlers to the British Isles?)

We were discussing the first European settlers, and from their point of view the native Americans were heathens. And the Norse visitors not even known about, and certainly no longer resident.

The days of the several Mayflower's various settlement trips would certainly seem to mark the start of American society, the declaration of Independence is certainly a turning point, as is the civil war and the addition of the various later new states.

There is little point in discussing Original British religions as none survived to transfer to America.
The 1776 event has little to do with the early settlement of America. It was only the establishment of a new political order for those already living there.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Actually, we are discussing Obamas use of "Freedom of Worship" as opposed to the more widely known "Freedom of Religion".
All of which relates back to the 1776 "event". And the authors of the Declaration and Constitution who were decidedly products of the Enlightenment in thier Theistic, Agnostic, Deistic, and even Atheistic beliefs.
The prudish Puritan Pilgrims would most assuredly have been against the provisions written down 150 years latter in the First Amendment. But then again, they had nothing to do with the founding of the United States of Amerioca, did they?

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Obama Moves away from 'Freedom of Religion' toward 'Freedom of Worship

I am sorry everyone the idea that there is less religious freedom today then in the past is just nuts.

In the USA the following religious persecutions were a part of our History:

-Up in till the 1970s There were laws on the books that American Indians could not practice their faith. These laws were enforced both with Guns like the wounded knee massacre. And the forced removal of native children to Christian Missionary schools. Then the Children were punished if they used their native languages or followed their religion up to the 1960s.

-An old jewish man told me the story of his persecution were the other christian kids would beat him and the other "Jews kids" up after school with the support of some of the teachers. This could never happen to day.

-When a hindu temple was being built in Berkeley California in the 1940s a local paper ran a story how Swamis were like Gypsies and they would steel male children and force them into Hinduism.

In many states (like Texas ) there were laws on the books that you had to believe in God to hold public office. They are still on the books but at least they are no longer enforced.

It is much better today then ever before. What are you people crying about.

 

[dust1n]

I'm not sure what is the problem of those you're referring to, but the solution for whatever that is, is not to limit all people's right to freely express themselves.

I think it's that kind of isolation that got us to the problems in the first place. No expression, no conversation, no community.

 

[Danmac]

Obama Moves away from 'Freedom of Religion' toward 'Freedom of Worship

Obama Moves away from 'Freedom of Religion' toward 'Freedom of Worship'? - U.s. - Catholic Online

so, now everyone is saying "freedom of worship" instead of "freedom of religion"

hmmmm...

the idea being:
freedom of religion = wear/say/do what you want anywhere you want.

freedom of worship = you can do what you want inside your church, but not anywhere else.



what say ye?

another article:
Serious threat to religious freedom?

I say he is a patronizer that doesn't have any standards. His actions are motivated by what will get him more votes in the next election. Why can't more people see that?

 

[Klaufi_Wodensson]

Hey, I don't really mind this whole "freedom of worship" deal, but if I can't wear what I want that is religious, then that's ********. At least give us that freedom. If I can't wear my Mjolnir pendant because that's a religious symbol in public, I'm gonna be ******.

 

[Reverend Rick]

No one is going to take our rights away from us. Freedom of religion means all religions.