Obama sends in 30000 troops to Afghanistan

[idea]

This whole brouhaha started cause we were "over there."

It started long before us... I think this is where it started

28 And Isaac loved Esau, because he did eat of his venison: but Rebekah loved Jacob....

(Old Testament | Genesis 25:28 - 34)

 

[kai]

This whole brouhaha started cause we were "over there." America's an Empire with hundreds of foreign military bases throughout the world. It's our foreign policy (PNAC) to create a pax americana and control the entire planet. 9/11 happened, for example, because we appeared to be expanding our occupation of Saudi Arabia.

If we left the rest of the world alone and tended to our own affairs the

"terrorists" would have no beef with us.

They'd lay down their arms and tend their own gardens.

We keep poking at hornets nests and wondering why we keep getting stung.

Bin Laden has said that he wishes to unite all Muslims and establish, by force if necessary, an Islamic nation adhering to the rule of the first Caliphs.bin Laden's 1998 fatwa states, it is the duty of Muslims around the world to wage holy war on the U.S., American citizens, and Jews. Muslims who do not heed this call are declared apostates.Al-Qaeda's ideology, often referred to as "jihadism," is marked by a willingness to kill "apostate" —and Shiite—Muslims and an emphasis on jihad. His ideology has its roots in the work of two modern Sunni Islamic thinkers: Mohammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab and Sayyid Qutb.

you dont think that this kind of ideology spreading through the Muslim world and actually taking up bases and training camps in countries like Afghanistan would not crash headlong into the west at some stage

 

[Valjean]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, my friend.
The whole 'terrorist agenda' and all the anger and hatred that goes with it exists because of our meddling in the middle East. They don't "hate us for our freedom." They're furious at us because of the social destablization, insecurity and human rights abuses our quest for oil and empire created.
True, they were always fractious, but their quarrels used to be local. Now they have an exploding population, much of it disaffected youth, and a common enemy. It's no wonder they've latched onto a unifying, utopian myth.

Stop poking at the hornet's nest and you won't need an elaborate beekeper's suit.

 

[kai]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, my friend.
The whole 'terrorist agenda' and all the anger and hatred that goes with it exists because of our meddling in the middle East. They don't "hate us for our freedom." They're furious at us because of the social destablization, insecurity and human rights abuses our quest for oil and empire created.
True, they were always fractious, but their quarrels used to be local. Now they have an exploding population, much of it disaffected youth, and a common enemy.

Stop poking at the hornet's nest and you won't need an elaborate beekeper's suit.

if its all down to "our " meddling in the middle east then why the hatred of jews and shia? the call for the establishment of the Caliphate by force. thats nothing to do with the west. until of course we get in the way of his dreams of world domination, sounds very Bond villian like but thats the idea ,thats what the caliphate is all about, in his eyes after all the world belongs to Allah and its his duty to return it to him.

and his hatred of Americans in Saudi ? should we appease him then? tell me should the west base its foreign policy on the wishes of the likes of Bin Laden ? and its not because their American that he hates them on "holy ground" its because they are unbelievers.

i had a wasp nest once, i called out an exterminator.

 

[idea]

Have you read 3 cups of tea? Watch this. (just fixed the link to my fave youtube of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxL0x7l4BU&feature=fvw

that is the solution.

Watch this!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxL0x7l4BU&feature=fvw

 

[kai]

As Osama bin Laden himself put it in a statement released from Tora Bora in Afghanistan in December 2001: 'It does not matter whether Osama lives or dies, the awakening has begun'

 

[Valjean]

Hatred of the Jews? : Israel -- big meddle -- though much of the hatred is aided and abetted, if not stirred up entirely, by larger government interests, to distract dissident elements and direct social unrest toward an outside enemy. (Heaven forbid the Arabs should suddenly demand redress of their own problems from those in power)

Islamic fundamentalism and the dream of a new Caliphate is a unifying, utopian myth uniting them against us, and it does have something to do with the West -- we caused it, with our meddling; our foreign policy.

Our foreign policy wasn't based on the wishes of Bin ladin. He wanted us to attack Iraq. He stated this openly. Our incursions only served to verify the anti-American propaganda his movement had been spouting, and served as his single greatest recruiting tool.

If America based its foreign policy on the utopian ideals this country was founded on, rather than PNAC and multinational corporate interests, we'd never have stirred up a middle Eastern hornet's nest.

I had a hornet's nest as well. I left it alone. It left me alone.
Something scary or worrisome? Republican approach: destroy it! Democratic approach: if it's doing no harm, leave it alone.

 

[kai]

Hatred of the Jews? : Israel -- big meddle -- though much of the hatred is aided and abetted, if not stirred up entirely, by larger government interests, to distract dissident elements and direct social unrest toward an outside enemy. (Heaven forbid the Arabs should suddenly demand redress of their own problems from those in power) lets not mistake a hatred of jews for a hatred of Israel, he says jews not Israelis

Islamic fundamentalism and the dream of a new Caliphate is a unifying, utopian myth uniting them against us, and it does have something to do with the West -- we caused it, with our meddling; our foreign policy. we caused a desire for the return of the Caliphate ? we caused the desire for man's representation of God's authority on earth?

Our foreign policy wasn't based on the wishes of Bin ladin. He wanted us to attack Iraq. He stated this openly. Our incursions only served to verify the anti-American propaganda his movement had been spouting, and served as his single greatest recruiting tool. Islam is his single greatest recruiting tool

If America based its foreign policy on the utopian ideals this country was founded on, rather than PNAC and multinational corporate interests, we'd never have stirred up a middle Eastern hornet's nest.
Utipian ideals are just that utopian.

I had a hornet's nest as well. I left it alone. It left me alone.
Something scary or worrisome? Republican approach: destroy it! Democratic approach: if it's doing no harm, leave it alone.

so we leave alqueda alone and they wont bother us?

 

[Sunstone]

Islam is his single greatest recruiting tool.

That's not what former jihadists state about why and how they were recruited to radicalism. Why don't you believe them when they almost universally state it was Western and Israeli aggression that prompted them to become jihadists? Do you think all of them are lying? All of them?

 

[Valjean]

1. Yes. We caused it. These fundamentaist/jihadist groups, with their "return the Caliphate" ethos, can trace their evolution all the way back to the Muslim Brotherhood (google), founded in Egypt in 1928 as a reaction to British rule (remember Egypt became a British protectorate in 1914). Now the US is the invader. Same imperialism, different player.

2.Islam has always been there. It's our supposed threat to it, verified, in the Muslim world's eyes, by our invasion, that bin ladin declared (and US analysts concur) his "single greatest recruiting tool."

3. You seem to equate "utopian" with ineffectual. Keep in mind, it was the utopian ideas of humanism that the founding fathers founded this country on. It was the replacement of this utopian ideal with pragmatic corporatism and imperialism that got this country off track.
Utopian is good! It's an ideal to strive for.

so we leave alqueda alone and they won't bother us?

Sort of... leave the Middle East alone and we remove Al Queda's raison d'etre and popular support. It'll shrivel up and blow away

 

[Valjean]

Have you read 3 cups of tea? Watch this. (just fixed the link to my fave youtube of it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxL0x7l4BU&feature=fvw

that is the solution.

Watch this!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMxL0x7l4BU&feature=fvw

I think you've got the right idea, idea. If you want to make friends and influence people; if you really want to help, go in with the Peace Corps, not the Marines.

 

[Tiapan]

It is IMHO the lack of notice that the US took in the 1990's that has caused the problem. After the fall of the USSR the West and the USA deemed the one and only truth was Capitalism. Who was to argue it beat the biggest threat mankind had ever faced MAD Mutual Assured Destruction. So the US navel gazed while the institutions of capitalism had their reigns removed raping and pillaging the third world, causing outrage. Does anyone remember Bhopal in India and a little company called Union Carbide? The cyanide spill at Oktedi in New Guinea?

Capitalisms new trans-geographic boundary organisms ie companies, had one objective, profits for shareholders not the sociological consequences of their activities. Kosovo and Serbia, Israel and Palestine, Burma, Pol Pot all burned while the US procrastinated. Intelligence was miss handled missing key indicators of unrest, the attack on the warship in the gulf of Aden, The Bombings of the embassies in obscure African republics. The NSA/CIA/FBI group bungle of 911.

Then you have George W IQ<100 in charge. I think the first 10 minutes of video show it all, when his aid whispers in his ear while GWB is talking to that room full of Kindergarten kids. Deep Thought had nothing GWB that day.

So who did this terrible thing? Osma Bin Laden some one calls hes a saudi,
Well lets get him replies GWB, where is he?
Afghanistan was the reply.
OK tell the 7th fleet to open fire we are at War boys.
There is a tap at his shoulder, its Dick and Rumsy.
Psst how bout we go and finish ya dads work, see we have this plan we have been working on for a while and it would fit right in with current events. I mean an arabs an arab aint they who cares if they Iraqi, Iranians or Afghanies, they're all teatowel heads, lets get em.

Meanwhile Osama moves casually to his mountain summer retreat while George, Dick and Rumsy beat on saddam and kick his asp.

Surely a president of low IQ and some tough acquaintances (Dick and Rumsy) with a separate agenda, diverted valuable resources away from the logical targets. This made the US look foolish and allowed the real problem in the form of radical extremism to repopulate and flourish back in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Obama is a difficult situation. Does he walk away from the enemy that killed 3000 citizens on 911 (more than died at Pearl Harbor). Thus giving no meaning to the 6000 odd allies who have died in the Iraq and Afghani theaters of operations since 911Or does he redirect resources at the prime locus of the problem and give it one last good shot? The key problem here is education and communication not troops. But to have civilised communications you need the troops or the goat herders just blow it up.

I believe Obama has made the correct decision provided he can reduce the corruption and put in the infrastructure and maintain it, then give the afghan people the confidence to think for themselves. That's a big ask in the corrupt feudal neolithic societies we are dealing with. It would be easier to leave them be and let them stone to death women, who are of no more valuable than goats, as a method of birth control.

My point is this is complex situation, The US allowed corporate america to get out of hand and reek havock on the world after the collapse of the USSR. The neanderthals struck back. The US attacked typically in the wrong place. So I feel is implicit and must resolve the issue as they are a main contributor, responsible for the mess in the first place. If you withdraw I would suggest far more will die than if you stay in the long run. But the answer is not bullets it is truth through communications that will make the difference especially if you can get some of those female goat people to a school.


Cheers

 

[Perfect Circle]

Do you think America should be invading and occupying as did the Nazis in WWII? Do you believe US propaganda? Do you believe Israel should be taking land from Palestinians and walling them in?

And all of this has to do with my question... how? I asked if you were a total pacifist in response to you accusing Caladan of being some sort of war-hawk. Now would you like to answer the question, or would you rather continue hurling ridiculous melodramatic questions back at me?

 

[Perfect Circle]

LOL, Protect them and their freedom? We're the Nazis, we're the invaders and occupiers there to take what we want.

Look man, you need to calm down. Ranting about the US being "Nazis" is just stupid. I don't agree with the war or the way we went about it, but accusing our forces of being "Nazis" is just unfounded and silly. Seriously, what comparisons can you make between US/NATO/UN occupation, and Nazi occupation?

 

[Storm]

Look man, you need to calm down. Ranting about the US being "Nazis" is just stupid. I don't agree with the war or the way we went about it, but accusing our forces of being "Nazis" is just unfounded and silly. Seriously, what comparisons can you make between US/NATO/UN occupation, and Nazi occupation?

It's cheap appeal to emotion. Presumably because he has no legitimate argument.

 

[Smoke]

I think you're putting the cart before the horse, my friend.
The whole 'terrorist agenda' and all the anger and hatred that goes with it exists because of our meddling in the middle East. They don't "hate us for our freedom." They're furious at us because of the social destablization, insecurity and human rights abuses our quest for oil and empire created.
True, they were always fractious, but their quarrels used to be local. Now they have an exploding population, much of it disaffected youth, and a common enemy. It's no wonder they've latched onto a unifying, utopian myth.

Stop poking at the hornet's nest and you won't need an elaborate beekeper's suit.

I strongly disagree -- and I think strongly disagreeing with Seyorni is something I've never done before.

Granted that the United States manages -- in the tradition of the British Empire -- to make almost every bad situation worse, the West did not create these movements. If the Western countries withdrew completely from the Middle East, if Israel closed up shop and all all the Jews moved to Arizona, there would still be these violent fundamentalist movements, and the West would still have to deal with them.

Fundamentalism isn't caused by oppression, though oppression can certainly feed it. Fundamentalism is caused by the inability to deal with a shifting paradigm. It results, probably inevitably, when traditional dogma confronts modernity. There's no longer any way for much of anybody to avoid confronting modernity anymore. Maybe if you belong to an isolated tribe in one of the most isolated parts of the earth, if you live deep in the rain forest or way out on the steppes, you can be apart from the rest of the world for now. But most people in most countries must come face to face with the modern world, and some of them will react by feeling threatened and by hating the perceived threat.

In a way, Islam's confrontation with modernity is a case of the chickens coming home to roost. When the Ottoman conquests drove scholars West from the Eastern Roman Empire, and when contact with Islam spurred iconoclasm and Reformation in Western Christianity, the seeds of modernity were sown. Islam was unable to conquer Western Christendom with armies, but helped to break its back in ways that Muslims never intended or foresaw, and now Islam must inevitably face the consequences. Nothing Western politicians or Western armies do or do not do will change that bare fact.

And because Western countries have welcomed immigration from Muslim lands, the confrontation will play out in the West as well as in the Middle East -- which is a shame for us, because we're still dealing with the Christian fundamentalism that arose from our own traditional culture's confrontation with modernity.

 

[Storm]

1) Cost. We are in a recession and this will only make things worse and we will be further in debt.

2) Lives. We will suffer only more causalities as the war escalates.

To my mind, these points are overly simplistic, and, to be frank, rather selfish.

Setting aside for the moment the question of whether the conflict in Afghanistan was just, having initiated it, we have a moral obligation to resolve it.

3) Pointless in the long run. Although it may help stabilize the region for a bit, it won't be permanent. Afghanistan has been going in a downward spiral politically for quite some time. Eventually the nation will go into turmoil. All things are impermanent as the Buddha said.

If - IF - we can stabilize Afghanistan, then we've done a good thing, both morally and politically. Of course it won't last forever, but what if it lasts a century? 50 years? How many years of peace are worth sacrifice on our part in your estimation?

So what do you think?

I have my qualms about it, but they're different from yours.

While I think a surge is wise and necessary, the timetable for wiithdrawal worries me. By announcing to the world that we'll be leaving in x time, it strikes me that we're merely informing the terrorists that they can wait us out.

However, when discussing it with my father, he had what I think is a pretty good point: the Taliban being hugely unpopular, if we can help the Afghans get it together and create a stable government, THEY can take care of the terrorists. And if we can't do that in 18 months, it may not matter how long we stay.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

That's not what former jihadists state about why and how they were recruited to radicalism. Why don't you believe them when they almost universally state it was Western and Israeli aggression that prompted them to become jihadists? Do you think all of them are lying? All of them?

If religion wasn't a relevant factor, then why would they become religious extremists?

 

[Storm]

If religion wasn't a relevant factor, then why would they become religious extremists?

Because it's a convenient framework.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Because it's a convenient framework.

Sounds like a convenient rationalization.