You can reason better than that. Just give it a try.
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Objective morality and God
- Thread starter Antibush5
- Start date
You can reason better than that. Just give it a try.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
I thought we were talking about Ayn Rand here.
brokensymmetry
ground state
I was a moral realist in a robust sense and an atheist, no problem (if you are curious about that, i suggest you check out Wielenberg's work such as his book Value and Virtue in a Godless Universe). Actually I don't think theism helps at all establish morality because you run right into the Euthyphro argument. You need another foundation anyway. Ah yeah I agree with St frank also.
Should you believe? I don't know. What other reasons do you have for belief?
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You have an interesting sense of humor, I guess.
Precisely what was that argument, if you don't mind?
Define Objective Morality.
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Objective morality is whatever I declare to be right or wrong.
(But if you're not quite comfortable with that, I am willing to assert that it is God making the moral declarations, and I am only passing them along to you.)
roger1440
I do stuff
One may well ask: How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others? The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that an unjust law is no law at all.
Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust.
Martin Luther King, Jr.
Letter from a Birmingham Jail
April 16, 1963
Letter from a Birmingham Jail
April 16, 1963
It seems to me that you did not have a reason even before reading that book.
So no, you shouldn't believe unless you feel like believing.
Of course, the same was true before reading that book as well.
An objective morality is necessary and real. But I will be darned if belief in God is of any help in realizing that!
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
But is Ayn Rand any help in realizing that?
CynthiaCypher
Well-Known Member
I know. Ayn Rand and Yahweh often act the same...jealous, egotistical and just plain mean. If you read the biographies of both there is a lot in common.
I would have to read a lot more from her to know with confidence.
An experience I'm not really willing to go through, given her work's known shortcomings.
So my provisional answer is that she may be of some help, depending on who reads her and at which point in life.
I would still not advise her books, though, and certainly not as moral guides.
Sir Doom
Cooler than most of you
Obviously not. If you have no reason to believe... then of course you shouldn't. I would submit, however that you probably have a handful of other reasons to believe that you just aren't sharing. Obviously, I can't peak in your skull and see them so I'll just leave it at that.
You mean you're also passing on God's words as to the true and unchanging moral code? That's the 8th person I've met this week. Surely it's a sign from God himself. Where do I sign up?
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
There will always be false prophets. But you can never know the Actual and Real objective morality unless you heed my message. For a small fee, I will even chisel it into stone for you.
TheGunShoj
Active Member
The questions you have to ask here are these, Does god decide what is moral and what isn't? If he decides then it is subjective because he could change what is moral tomorrow. If God said murder was okay tomorrow, would you be okay with that?
Or are the morals absolutes and God just tells us about them. If this is the case then god is essentially a messenger and has nothing to do with creating morals, therefor the morals are objective, but god is pointless.
Pick your poison.
You mean you don't already have stone tablets, from thousands of years ago, that have been passed down from generation to generation?
I have some friends who found Rand's writings liberating. The parts they found liberating were her attacks on religion and self-sacrifice. By coincidence, all of those friends were relatively young women raised in patriarchal Christian cults that taught them to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of men. I can see how Rand resonated with them.
AmbiguousGuy
Well-Known Member
Now that you mention it, actually I do. A whole warehouse full of them. Call for our latest catalogue!
Plus, I also have this guy. An old man who is the recipient, the vessel, of an ancient 'oral tradition'.
And he's handy with a chisel. Just tell us what objective morality you want, and if he's been handed down that particular statute -- which, eerily, he always has -- we will petrify it for you*.
* miscellaneous surcharges, licensing fees, diddledewatts, taxes, etc. may apply.