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Objective, Subjective, Confusion, Reconciliation

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Can you explain what analytical truth is because you keep saying something is not?

So please define it in your own words.

Thanks.

Analytical truths are true by definition or by the use of only logic.

As examples, statements such as 'every bachelor is an unmarried man' is an analytical truth because it states the definition of the word 'bachelor'. Similarly, the statement that every triangle has three sides is an analytic statement.

Alternatively, statements in math have usually been regarded as analytic truths. My position is that some care is required here.

For example, the statement that the angles of every triangle add up to a straight angle (180 degrees) is often regarded as an analytic truth. I would disagree here. Instead, I would say that the statement 'In Euclidean geometry, the angles of a triangle add up to be a straight angle' is the analytic truth. The point is that the original statement is only true under the assumptions of Euclidean geometry and does not hold in non-Euclidean geometries.

So the *analytic* truth is that the statement about triangles follows from the assumptions of Euclidean geometry. That is what follows solely from the use of logic.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
I won't give specifics, but it was in abstract harmonic analysis, studying what are known as thin sets.

I did research in other areas since then, of course.



Of course. He used mathematical objects as both examples of and motivation for his theory of Forms. He used math and his parable of the cave to justify this theory. As an interesting example, he regarded all education as inspiring memory of what is already known and used a mathematical example with a slave to justify this claim.

But, I am not a Platonist, either in math or more generally. I think the theory of forms to be one of the worst philosophical mistakes ever made. In math, I am mostly a formalist.

Hmm. Great.

You have not studied philosophy Poly. One doesn't have to study everything, but one has to have humility to know that everyone is not lying and making things up.

If you think people are making up things like analytical truths and mathematical truths in philosophy right now in this thread, it could be that you just don't know much about it.

Saying these are new terms in philosophy you have never heard of is unbelievable. Unless you have not studied anything in philosophy.

In mathematics one could make a proposition that could be argued for, you know this, since you have a Phd in maths. Someone arguing for a parabolic with a compact set or something in order to come with a formula, that's not a mathematical truth in philosophy. A mathematical truth is a logical deduction that has to be and will be true in all possible worlds. I think I gave you an example and you made a bizarre argument just for the sake of making an argument about it being reliant upon an axiom. It's absurd. It's not reliant upon an axiom which is just a cooked up nonsense, it's just simple logic that anyone can relate to.

But you will argue against it. You will argue against anything. If someone says I am alive will just argue about it for whatever reason.

If you are a formalist, you should be able to understand at least the basics of formal logic. It's very basic, not like solving some major mathematical problem. You can't even understand the most basic logic. Either that or you just wish to argue about it.

Tell me. How could you breathing because you are human and all humans breathe be wrong because an axiom could structurally change? It's nonsensical. Why not actually read up on these terms rather than making such arguments?
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Analytical truths are true by definition or by the use of only logic.

Bizarre.

As examples, statements such as 'every bachelor is an unmarried man' is an analytical truth because it states the definition of the word 'bachelor'. Similarly, the statement that every triangle has three sides is an analytic statement.

Yeah. You had no clue what in the world any of this was, and was saying you have never heard any of this as if people are making things up on the fly, been at it for such a long time saying the same thing defying it every single time, and suddenly you are saying this. It's really strange.

Analytical truths is a term used to represent simple logic. Why are you defying it saying "it's not. Its scientifically proven" when you don't even know what it is? Every tom, dick and harry knows a triangle has three sides. It's not so complicated. Every one with a brain knows a married man cannot be a bachelor. Every body knows a square can't be a circle. That's an analytical truth. Simple logic.

).
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Hmm. Great.

You have not studied philosophy Poly. One doesn't have to study everything, but one has to have humility to know that everyone is not lying and making things up.

Actually, I *have* studied philosophy. Don't make assumptions.

If you think people are making up things like analytical truths and mathematical truths in philosophy right now in this thread, it could be that you just don't know much about it.

No, I have studied this and I know that there is a wide range of definitions for these concepts. And different definitions lead to different conclusions. That is why I ask for the specific definitions you are using.

Saying these are new terms in philosophy you have never heard of is unbelievable. Unless you have not studied anything in philosophy.

When I have I said these are new terms in philosophy or that I have not heard of them? What I said is that modern discoveries show that the old definitions are no longer tenable. I also know that most of these concepts have more than one definition in the literature. Often different definitions lead to very different statements. For example, Plato's understanding of mathematical truth is quite different than Benacerraf's, which is different than Decartes', etc.

Are you of the opinion that all of philosophy has agreed upon the definition of 'mathematical truth'?

In mathematics one could make a proposition that could be argued for, you know this, since you have a Phd in maths. Someone arguing for a parabolic with a compact set or something in order to come with a formula, that's not a mathematical truth in philosophy. A mathematical truth is a logical deduction that has to be and will be true in all possible worlds. I think I gave you an example and you made a bizarre argument just for the sake of making an argument about it being reliant upon an axiom. It's absurd. It's not reliant upon an axiom which is just a cooked up nonsense, it's just simple logic that anyone can relate to.

And this is simply false. Yes, it depends on the specific axioms of math (and of logic) you choose to use. Logic alone does not and cannot reproduce mathematics, in spite of Russell and Whitehead's attempts.

For example, even to define the number 2 requires going beyond mere logic. Addition is a bit beyond that. So even to write the claim that 2+2=4 is going farther than logic alone. To say that x+y=y+x for all natural numbers x and y is way beyond simple logic.

In particular, to even define the concept of 2, you need *at least* to have some initial number (usually 0 or 1) and the concept of successor. The latter involves functions, which usually means some sort of set theory. To define and use addition requires some sort of ability to define operations recursively. None of these are trivial assumptions.

But you will argue against it. You will argue against anything. If someone says I am alive will just argue about it for whatever reason.

I argue against it because I know it to be false.

If you are a formalist, you should be able to understand at least the basics of formal logic. It's very basic, not like solving some major mathematical problem. You can't even understand the most basic logic. Either that or you just wish to argue about it.

I assure you that I understand formal logic, almost certainly in more depth than you do.

But, for example, do you understand that there are alternative versions of formal logic in which the law of non-contradiction is false? or where the law of excluded middle is false?

Tell me. How could you breathing because you are human and all humans breathe be wrong because an axiom could structurally change? It's nonsensical. Why not actually read up on these terms rather than making such arguments?

It is an observation that I am a human and a very complicated set of observations along with induction to say that all humans breathe.

But yes, I usually adopt the *axiom* that

For all x, P(x) implies that P(a) where a is any term.

You do understand that this is either an axiom or a result proved from some axioms, right?

Maybe *you* are the one that should be reading up on these things. Might I suggest Kunen's book, The Foundations of Mathematics? you might just learn a few things if you read this *basic* book.
 
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Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Bizarre.



Yeah. You had no clue what in the world any of this was, and was saying you have never heard any of this as if people are making things up on the fly, been at it for such a long time saying the same thing defying it every single time, and suddenly you are saying this. It's really strange.

No, I did not say such a thing. I asked for *your* definition of the terms because I know there are many different definitions out there.

Analytical truths is a term used to represent simple logic. Why are you defying it saying "it's not. Its scientifically proven" when you don't even know what it is? Every tom, dick and harry knows a triangle has three sides. It's not so complicated. Every one with a brain knows a married man cannot be a bachelor. Every body knows a square can't be a circle. That's an analytical truth. Simple logic.

).

Interesting that two of the three follow from the definitions and the third is actually false in some geometries. Yes, there are geometries where circles (all points equidistant from a given point) can be square (four sided figure with equal side lengths and equal angles).
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Interesting that two of the three follow from the definitions and the third is actually false in some geometries. Yes, there are geometries where circles (all points equidistant from a given point) can be square (four sided figure with equal side lengths and equal angles).

100 divided by 0 is infinity.

It's mathematical. Philosophically it's an absurdity.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
100 divided by 0 is infinity.

It's mathematical. Philosophically it's an absurdity.

Nope. 100 divided by 0 is undefined (in the usual mathematical system). Please learn some math.

Also, remember that there are several very different notions of infinity in math. What you wrote is closest to being true when talking about limits.

Why do you think it is absurd philosophically? What argument can you give for this claim?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Nah. You dont know the basics.

So you claim. Those that actually know have said otherwise. I'll take their word on the matter.

Again, you might want to read a *basic* book like Kunen's mentioned above. You might learn something.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Nope. 100 divided by 0 is undefined (in the usual mathematical system). Please learn some math.

Also, remember that there are several very different notions of infinity in math. What you wrote is closest to being true when talking about limits.

Why do you think it is absurd philosophically? What argument can you give for this claim?

Haha. Alright. Infinity is an absurdity in philosophy. You didn't know that? I thought you have studied it so much you are some kind of guru. Strange you didn't know about this being who you are.

So you tell me what are the arguments that philosophers posit about infinity?

So you claim. Those that actually know have said otherwise. I'll take their word on the matter.

Again, you might want to read a *basic* book like Kunen's mentioned above. You might learn something.

No no. See. I am no genius like you. I am not very educated. So don't expect much from me. You are "the one".

Thanks for quoting mathematicians as a philosopher you have studied for years. Bizarre by the way. Weird.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Haha. Alright. Infinity is an absurdity in philosophy. You didn't know that? I thought you have studied it so much you are some kind of guru. Strange you didn't know about this being who you are.

I have seen philosophers *claim* it is an absurdity. But their reasons for thinking so are uniformly poor.

So you tell me what are the arguments that philosophers posit about infinity?

Well, classical philosophers have generally divided infinity into two types: potential and actual. They then claim that actual infinity is absurd, usually by pointing out one of the characteristics of infinite sets that shows how they differ from finite ones (like that a subset of an infinite set can have the same cardinality as the larger set, or some sort of misunderstanding of Hilbert's hotel). In other words, they show their ignorance of infinity by their arguments.


No no. See. I am no genius like you. I am not very educated. So don't expect much from me. You are "the one".

You like to use sarcasm, but I suggested a book that would allow you to see why and how you have been wrong in this discussion. Since I am not Kunen, I don't see how you twist what I say in that way.

Thanks for quoting mathematicians as a philosopher you have studied for years. Bizarre by the way. Weird.

Descartes isn't a philosopher? Russell isn't a philosopher? maybe if you read Kunen, you would learn the philosophy he discusses at some length.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member

Did you read the rest of my post?

Like I said, they confuse properties of infinite sets that are different than those for finite sets as being, in themselves, as absurd. Read Craig for some standard bad arguments against actual infinity. if you don't understand why they are bad, just ask and I can point out the errors.
 
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firedragon

Veteran Member
Did you read the rest of my post?

Like I said, they confuse properties of infinite sets that are different than those for finite sets as being, in themselves, as absurd. Read Craig for some standard bad arguments against actual infinity. if you don't understand why they are bad, just ask and I can point out the errors.

You are asking me to ask, and I did ask. That's why I said "why". Do you understand?

Forget Craig.

YOu said that "they" confuse properties of infinite sets. Who exactly does that? Which philosopher?
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
You are asking me to ask, and I did ask. That's why I said "why". Do you understand?

Forget Craig.

YOu said that "they" confuse properties of infinite sets. Who exactly does that? Which philosopher?

Every philosopher before Cantor did his work misunderstood the properties of infinite collections. Plato, Aristotle, Lucretius, Hume, Kant, Descartes, Pascal, etc. Anyone who talked about the infinite before about 1850 simply got it wrong.

And the *why* is that they assumed that the properties of finite sets should generalize directly to the properties of infinite sets. When they did not, they saw that as a contradiction even though no actual contradiction was found.

For example, one of the characteristic properties of infinite sets is that they have proper subsets that are the 'same size' in terms of cardinality. That doesn't happen with finite sets (leading to the statement that a whole is greater than any of its parts, a statement whose truth that depends on whether 'greater' is defined by cardinality or via subsets).
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Every philosopher before Cantor did his work misunderstood the properties of infinite collections. Plato, Aristotle, Lucretius, Hume, Kant, Descartes, Pascal, etc. Anyone who talked about the infinite before about 1850 simply got it wrong.

And the *why* is that they assumed that the properties of finite sets should generalize directly to the properties of infinite sets. When they did not, they saw that as a contradiction even though no actual contradiction was found.

For example, one of the characteristic properties of infinite sets is that they have proper subsets that are the 'same size' in terms of cardinality. That doesn't happen with finite sets (leading to the statement that a whole is greater than any of its parts, a statement whose truth that depends on whether 'greater' is defined by cardinality or via subsets).

You don't understand certain things about saying they all got it wrong. Spoken like God. In mathematics and this kind of philosophical discourse about infinity which is a concept, not found in the physical world, math improves. Concepts change and improve with the wheel., How do you know all the so called ideas about infinity is all false today?

Well Poly. that's absurd. It's a dream world. It's not reality. Anyway, your strategy of driving a thread to something else is accomplished. :) You did not present a single philosophical argument though asked several times while claiming you had studied it all. All you have done is like a cut and paste say the same thing from a mathematical point of view. Is that even related to Descartes thoughts on infinity? It's a completely different category. You are presenting a strawman.

Tell me. Why is 100 divided by 0 undefined? Is that a mathematical outcome or a philosophical outcome? Why is it not infinity? Or/and what is 100 divided by Infinity? Can you present something in reality which you can divide by infinity? A pen, a human, a mountain or a river? Can you divide the sea by infinity and show it in reality? Can you show two sets? Can you show disjoint members? If you are a mathematicist prove it physically.

Let's see your evidence.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
calling truths "opinions" does not mean "calling opinions truths".

Truths are not merely opinions. But opinions can be truths.

And I never suggested that we should.

I said that "Subjective truth" and "Opinion" are both synonyms. It means that the only kind of "truths" that fit into the category of opinion are the subjective ones. Not ALL of them.
 
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