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Observations promoting Intelligence behind life & support systems

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Did you present evidence, or did you just post a link to alleged evidence?

Actually you did neither.



What you did was ask if I spent time looking for HellFire in scripture. What you did was ask a question about Comma Johannum.

So, your concept of providing evidence is asking questions and letting others "figure it out".

And then you wonder why people laugh. But I do understand your problem. You have nothing, so you have to duck and dodge and evade and make silly posts and call them "evidence".
“duck and dodge and evade”?!

Really?

Why are you using an elllipsis (dots)? You are so disingenuous. Although I figured it would be useless, I answered your accusation...
Nevertheless, your Omniscient God knew that Adam & Eve would disobey Him.
...by showing you that the Biblical God, Jehovah, did not know ahead of time, the choices people made. But now you’re using dots to hide the information I gave....
I’ve addressed those assumptions many times on here. They are invalid. The Book of Jonah alone debunks them.

If you’re smart, you can reason on Psalm 78:41 (NASB)...”Again and again they tempted God, And pained the Holy One of Israel.

(If God knew this would happen...what is He, a sadomasochist? )

Gen. 18:20,21....”Then the Lord said, “The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is immense, and their sin is extremely serious. 21 I will go down to see if what they have done justifies the cry that has come up to me. If not, I will find out.

Genesis 18 Christian Standard Bible

(Does this sound like God knew what humans would do?)


Don’t accuse me of dodging and evading.

Attack the evidence with substantial objections, not me.
A person who resorts to false accusations and ad homs, only reveals their weak argument & lack of confidence in it.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
That is how discussions are. You publicly declare something that needs backing and fail to back it, that gets noticed. What did you expect?
No, discussions do not start with, “you’re ignorant”, etc. Only fights. I’m not here for that. Are you?

Where did I fail to back my counter-arguments?
 

Good-Ole-Rebel

*banned*
Good for you.
That supports creationism how, again?

The white flag of southern surrender is the best.

Right - it dissolved.

The government of a hostile foreign nation that attacked the Union in order to preserve the most important states' right - slavery. What a legacy!
That or traitors, whichever one might prefer to be known as.

Indeed - he ran off and hid. Can't sign anything when you run away.


LOL!
Good one...
Right, Ok... So in addition to scientific revisionism, you are into historical revisionism.


OK... Oh look what I found:

The Declaration of Causes of Seceding States

Georgia

The people of Georgia having dissolved their political connection with the Government of the United States of America, present to their confederates and the world the causes which have led to the separation. For the last ten years we have had numerous and serious causes of complaint against our non-slave-holding confederate States with reference to the subject of African slavery....
While it attracts to itself by its creed the scattered advocates of exploded political heresies, of condemned theories in political economy, the advocates of commercial restrictions, of protection, of special privileges, of waste and corruption in the administration of Government, anti-slavery is its mission and its purpose. By anti-slavery it is made a power in the state. The question of slavery was the great difficulty in the way of the formation of the Constitution.

While the subordination and the political and social inequality of the African race was fully conceded by all, it was plainly apparent that slavery would soon disappear from what are now the non-slave-holding States of the original thirteen. The opposition to slavery was then, as now, general in those States and the Constitution was made with direct reference to that fact. ...
The prohibition of slavery in the Territories is the cardinal principle of this organization....



Mississippi
A Declaration of the Immediate Causes which Induce and Justify the Secession of the State of Mississippi from the Federal Union.

In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth. These products are peculiar to the climate verging on the tropical regions, and by an imperious law of nature, none but the black race can bear exposure to the tropical sun. These products have become necessities of the world, and a blow at slavery is a blow at commerce and civilization....
It has nullified the Fugitive Slave Law in almost every free State in the Union, and has utterly broken the compact which our fathers pledged their faith to maintain...

It [the union]advocates negro equality, socially and politically, and promotes insurrection and incendiarism in our midst.



Texas
A Declaration of the Causes which Impel the State of Texas to Secede from the Federal Union.

...She [Texas] was received as a commonwealth holding, maintaining and protecting the institution known as negro slavery-- the servitude of the African to the white race within her limits-- a relation that had existed from the first settlement of her wilderness by the white race, and which her people intended should exist in all future time. Her institutions and geographical position established the strongest ties between her and other slave-holding States of the confederacy. Those ties have been strengthened by association. But what has been the course of the government of the United States, and of the people and authorities of the non-slave-holding States, since our connection with them?...
In all the non-slave-holding States, in violation of that good faith and comity which should exist between entirely distinct nations, the people have formed themselves into a great sectional party, now strong enough in numbers to control the affairs of each of those States, based upon an unnatural feeling of hostility to these Southern States and their beneficent and patriarchal system of African slavery, proclaiming the debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color-- a doctrine at war with nature, in opposition to the experience of mankind, and in violation of the plainest revelations of Divine Law. They demand the abolition of negro slavery throughout the confederacy, the recognition of political equality between the white and negro races, and avow their determination to press on their crusade against us, so long as a negro slave remains in these States.​


Such a proud pro-slavery heritage....
But at least Jeff Davis didn't surrender! Yeee haw!

Sherman had the right idea.

Bye bye - I have no interest in communicating with a pro-slavery anti-science religionist.


Well, if you have no interest in communicating then I have no interest in answering. I will say this, all the points you have made concerning the Confederacy I have addressed in other threads. God find them and read them. You will see that you, like so many, don't know what you are talking about.

Where Is Sherman when you really need him?

Good-Ole-Rebel
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Regarding those who speak with their spirit guides, or otherwise have paranormal experiences....

No, I don't think they are making it up. I think they are having real experiences, but are misinterpreting what they are experiencing. They attribute the experiences to outside influences, when, in reality, they are all in their heads.

So...”they are having real experiences,” but, “in reality, they are all in their heads”?

I think you are trying to sugar coat it: you’re trying to be ‘nice’ to those that have such experiences (which is probably your nature, you seem kind), but at the same time, support your naturalistic view, and call them delusional.

Because if some experience is “in their heads”....that’s delusion.

And I don’t think Winston Churchill (as per Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia) was delusional! Or the many others, including Teddy Roosevelt, etc.


This is, in a round about way, tied in with this thread, because it’s referencing invisible ‘intelligent’ entities being ‘observed.’
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, discussions do not start with, “you’re ignorant”, etc. Only fights. I’m not here for that. Are you?

Where did I fail to back my counter-arguments?
Well, I do have my hat on. No. Did it really start that way or are you paraphrasing a bit?
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
No, discussions do not start with, “you’re ignorant”, etc. Only fights. I’m not here for that. Are you?

Where did I fail to back my counter-arguments?
Well, you have not shown that irreducible complexity is still a thing. Frankly, I have no idea how you would do that, there is no evidence for it and it fails logically, given there is no way to test all possible iterations of reduced structures and systems to demonstrate that some is irreducible. For that matter, there is no way to know if you even tested all possible iterations.

Think about immortality. Something very old could be said to be immortal, but how would you know. There is no way to test it. Even one immortal being could not be sure that a second being was immortal. All you could ever know is mortality with any certainty.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
The problem with Irreducible Complexity is that there are no evidence to support any of the premises, so it is untested, therefore it isn’t a scientific theory.

All Micheal Behe do is make claims which he could never substantiate. He has never tried to set

His concept is also unfalsifiable,


In science, any theory, hypothesis or model, will attempt to explain WHAT the phenomena is, and even more importantly, HOW does it work, hence the mechanics.

I have highlighted the last question and answer:
Q. [Rothschild] And one example of that is what's discussed in, among evolutionary biologists, as the concept of exaptation, correct?

A. [Behe] Yeah -- well, before I say, yes, I'd just like to say, the word exaptation is oftentimes used in loose sense, but, yes, that's generally correct.

Q. And that is a concept that people in the field of evolutionary biology consider to be a valid concept, a valid description of the way more and more complex systems get developed?

A. Let me say --

Q. I'm not asking you to agree with it. I'm asking you, is that what an evolutionary biologist proposes?

A. Again, let me make clear what we're talking about here. Some evolutionary biologists certainly think that exaptation is real and that it's important and so on. But simply saying that this part over here was exapted from that part over here does not give an explanation of how random mutation and natural selection could have gotten it from one state to the other.

Q. But it is certainly, exaptation -- for example, a bird wing developing from some kind of feathered structure on a dinosaur that didn't necessarily allow flight, that's what evolutionary biologists propose, and they call it exaptation?

A. That's entirely possible, and that's consistent with intelligent design, because intelligent design only focuses on the mechanism of how such a thing would happen. So the critical point for my argument is, how such things could develop by random mutation and natural selection.

Q. And again, intelligent design doesn't describe how it happened?

A. That's correct, only to say that intelligence was involved somewhere in the process.

If Behe was a competent biochemist, he would explain the process where intelligence is involve, with trying to answering the WHAT & HOW questions.

For any concept that omits the HOW, would only confirm Intelligent Design, as well as his own Irreducible Complexity, being disqualified as a falsifiable “Hypothesis”, or a falsifiable and tested “Scientific Theory”.

So Intelligent Design and Irreducible Complexity are nothing more than pseudoscience speculations.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Regarding those who speak with their spirit guides, or otherwise have paranormal experiences....

So...”they are having real experiences,” but, “in reality, they are all in their heads”?

Yes..

I think you are trying to sugar coat it: you’re trying to be ‘nice’ to those that have such experiences (which is probably your nature, you seem kind), but at the same time, support your naturalistic view, and call them delusional.

Because if some experience is “in their heads”....that’s delusion.

But if I have a hallucination, that hallucination is a real experience. If I interpret it as reality, there will be problems. See below on illusions.

And I don’t think Winston Churchill (as per Lincoln's ghost - Wikipedia) was delusional! Or the many others, including Teddy Roosevelt, etc.

This is, in a round about way, tied in with this thread, because it’s referencing invisible ‘intelligent’ entities being ‘observed.’

I think people are conditioned/programmed to expect intentions even when there are none. In the same way, we detect faces in clouds even though we know there are no actual faces there. it is simply how the brain works: it finds faces and it also finds intent even if neither actually exist.

We know of many optical illusions where even people who *know* what the reality is will *see* something different. that includes seeing motion in a static picture, for example. Given how common such is, I hesitate to say it is *delusional*, even though it is 'all in the head' and wrong.

BrainDen.com - Moving Eye Illusions
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I think people are conditioned/programmed to expect intentions even when there are none.
Winston Churchill was not “conditioned/programmed“ to expect that.
it is simply how the brain works: it finds faces and it also finds intent even if neither actually exist.
Finding a face in a cloud hardly makes one faint, like with Queen Wilhelmina.

There are simply too many documented cases of intelligent, sane people experiencing such incidents, to just arbitrarily dismiss them by attribution to delusions!


Here are some:


“On a lonely night in 1946, President Harry S. Truman went to bed at 9 p.m. About six hours later, he heard it.
Knock. Knock. Knock.
The sound against his bedroom door awakened him, he wrote to his wife in a letter that is archived in his presidential library and museum.
“I jumped up and put on my bathrobe, opened the door, and no one there,” he wrote. “Went out and looked up and down the hall, looked in your room and Margie’s. Still no one. Went back to bed after locking the doors and there were footsteps in your room whose door I’d left open. Jumped and looked and no one there! The damned place is haunted sure as shootin’. Secret Service said not even a watchman was up here at that hour.”

“You and Margie had better come back and protect me before some of these ghosts carry me off.”
......
Eight different presidents [experienced acrivity]
......
One of them would be Abraham Lincoln. He reportedly received regular visits from his son Willie, who died in the White House in 1862 at age 11 of what was probably typhoid fever. Mary Todd Lincoln, who was so grief-stricken by the loss that she remained in her room for weeks, spoke of seeing her son’s ghost once at the foot of her bed. There are also reports of her hearing Thomas Jefferson playing the violin and Andrew Jackson swearing.

After his assassination in 1865, Lincoln apparently joined his son in his phantasmal roaming.
First lady Grace Coolidge spoke in magazine accounts of seeing him look out a window in what had been in his office.”

Excerpts from https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-spooked-presidents-prime-ministers-and-pets/

When experiences like these are taken into consideration worldwide, you can multiply this article by a million times!

Now...why would so many people, some who never believed in life after death, experience these encounters?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
So...”they are having real experiences,” but, “in reality, they are all in their heads”?

I think you are trying to sugar coat it: you’re trying to be ‘nice’ to those that have such experiences (which is probably your nature, you seem kind), but at the same time, support your naturalistic view, and call them delusional.

Because if some experience is “in their heads”....that’s delusion.
With regarding to spirits or ghosts, I do think it is “in their heads”. Whether it is illusion or delusion, depends on the person’s faculties.

You do realize that not all illusions or hallucinations are necessarily delusions.

Hallucinations, if not the sources for delusions, can sometimes be the results of physical trauma, or sometimes be cause by certain drugs.

Illusions, on the other hand, is misinterpreting sensory perceptions, like Polymath257’s example, optical illusion.

Optical illusions are very common, more common than you think. And I don’t think any who experience optical illusions are suffering from delusions.

To give you an example of optical illusions being very common occurrence: the Sun and the Moon.

When we look at either of these objects in the sky, they appear smaller above (overhead), then appear bigger are seen near the horizons, after they rise or before they set.

They appeared larger just above the horizons, because the images we see are being refracted by the Earth’s atmosphere, bending the lights we see, as well as the angle of the line of sight of the observer. The larger images of the Sun and Moon above the horizons, are the optical illusions.

This example isn’t hallucination and delusion, nevertheless it is “in our heads”.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
With regarding to spirits or ghosts, I do think it is “in their heads”. Whether it is illusion or delusion, depends on the person’s faculties.

You do realize that not all illusions or hallucinations are necessarily delusions.

Hallucinations, if not the sources for delusions, can sometimes be the results of physical trauma, or sometimes be cause by certain drugs.

Illusions, on the other hand, is misinterpreting sensory perceptions, like Polymath257’s example, optical illusion.

Optical illusions are very common, more common than you think. And I don’t think any who experience optical illusions are suffering from delusions.

To give you an example of optical illusions being very common occurrence: the Sun and the Moon.

When we look at either of these objects in the sky, they appear smaller above (overhead), then appear bigger are seen near the horizons, after they rise or before they set.

They appeared larger just above the horizons, because the images we see are being refracted by the Earth’s atmosphere, bending the lights we see, as well as the angle of the line of sight of the observer. The larger images of the Sun and Moon above the horizons, are the optical illusions.

This example isn’t hallucination and delusion, nevertheless it is “in our heads”.
Thanks for the explanation. I mean that. You are civil in discussing this.

However, if you read the incidents that were reported, it involved not just sights, but sounds, like knocks on doors. By sane, reputable people.

Of course, I agree with you...illusion would fit many occurrences; but not all.

And, I’ll grant this, that there are a lot of people who want to believe in “ghosts”, propping up their ‘life after death’ beliefs, so their testimony would be tainted, biased.

But there are many people who don’t believe in such things, or at least didn’t, until after they had such experiences.

A good read is the book, “The Airmen Who Would Not Die,” by John G. Fuller, recounting events back in the 1920’s and 30’s surrounding the crash & destruction of the R-101 dirigible. And séances held by spirit medium Eileen Garrett.

And BTW, I don’t believe in life after death ideas. Ecclesiastes 9:5; Genesis 3:19.
I have another understanding.
 
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