Odd Religious Architecture

[sooda]

Interesting. Most of these pictures are from non-jewish buildings, so they don't count to your question. In regards to the other buildings, I would say that they were probably built before Jews knew that the Swastika is a pagan symbol and before the cross became a widespread Christian symbol.

KIPLING AND THE SWASTIKA - The Kipling Society
www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/facts_swastik.htm
Kipling's own introduction to the swastika as an Hindu good luck symbol certainly came through his father's encyclopaedic knowledge of Indian art. Indeed an illustration produced by John Lockwood Kipling entitled "Choosing the next King" for a story in Flora Annie Steel's Tales of the Punjab (Macmillan 1894) shows a sacred elephant kneeling before the Prince who was to accede.


The swastika was introduced to Europe from colonised India. Rudyard Kipling, the Indian-born British writer, put it on his book's dust jackets.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Mithraism, the worship of Mithra, the Iranian god of the sun, justice, contract, and war in pre-Zoroastrian Iran. Known as Mithras in the Roman Empire
Mithraism | Persian religion

mithras | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

IMHO, the root is to wander, to move, since the sun moves. Proto-Indo-European *mei-.
Pokorny IE Master Etyma: Indo-European Lexicon: Pokorny Master PIE Etyma - 710 3. mei- IE to go, wander

The swastika was introduced to Europe from colonised India. Rudyard Kipling, the Indian-born British writer, put it on his book's dust jackets.

Swastika was known to Greeks and other Europeans since pre-historic times.

 

[sooda]

mithras | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

IMHO, the root is to wander, to move, since the sun moves. Proto-Indo-European *mei-.
Pokorny IE Master Etyma: Indo-European Lexicon: Pokorny Master PIE Etyma
709 1. mei- IE 4. mei- to mure, repair, strengthen; pole
710 2. mei- IE mei-gu̯- to change, mutate, exchange
710 3. mei- IE to go, wander
710 4. mei- IE 1. mei- to tie, bindSwastika was known to Greeks and other Europeans since pre-historic times.

Yep..

Western use of the swastika in the early 20th century ...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_use_of_the_Swastika_in_the_early_20th_century
The Mueller tiles with swastika design can be found at the St. James Episcopal Church (1927), and the Immanuel Presbyterian Church (1928). [155] in Los Angeles. In May 2006, five terra cotta tiles were removed from St. Mary's Cathedral in St. Cloud Minnesota , the oldest parish in the community.

 

[ChristineM]

mithras | Search Online Etymology Dictionary

IMHO, the root is to wander, to move, since the sun moves. Proto-Indo-European *mei-.
Pokorny IE Master Etyma: Indo-European Lexicon: Pokorny Master PIE Etyma
709 1. mei- IE 4. mei- to mure, repair, strengthen; pole
710 2. mei- IE mei-gu̯- to change, mutate, exchange
710 3. mei- IE to go, wander
710 4. mei- IE 1. mei- to tie, bindSwastika was known to Greeks and other Europeans since pre-historic times.

The root and the name derived from that root are different things

 

[Aupmanyav]

Yep..

The earliest known swastika is from 10,000 BCE – part of "an intricate meander pattern of joined-up swastikas" found on a late paleolithic figurine of a bird, carved from mammoth ivory, found in Mezine, Ukraine. It has been suggested that this swastika may be a stylized picture of a stork in flight.[51] As the carving was found near phallic objects, this may also support the idea that the pattern was a fertility symbol.

The Samarra bowl, at the Pergamonmuseum, Berlin. The swastika in the centre of the design is a reconstruction. In England, neolithic or Bronze Age stone carvings of the symbol have been found on Ilkley Moor, such as the Swastika Stone. Mirror-image swastikas (clockwise and anti-clockwise) have been found on ceramic pottery in the Devetashka cave, Bulgaria, dated to 6,000 BCE.

Some of the earliest archaeological evidence of the swastika in the Indian subcontinent can be dated to 3,000 BCE. Investigators have also found seals with "mature and geometrically ordered" swastikas that date to before the Indus Valley Civilisation (3300–1300 BCE).

Chain, Gilan; Samarra bowl, by Dbachmann - Self-photographed, CC BY-SA 4.0, File:Samarra bowl.jpg - Wikimedia Commons Armenia; China; Hands of Svaroga, Poland, Oseberg Ship (Viking - 800 BCE), Norway; Corinth coin (600 BCE); Mycenian doll (16-1,100 BCE); Attican pottery, 780 BCE;
See more at: Swastika - Wikipedia. Forget about Kipling.

 

[sooda]

The earliest known swastika is from 10,000 BCE – part of "an intricate meander pattern of joined-up swastikas" found on a late paleolithic figurine of a bird, carved from mammoth ivory, found in Mezine, Ukraine. It has been suggested that this swastika may be a stylized picture of a stork in flight.[51] As the carving was found near phallic objects, this may also support the idea that the pattern was a fertility symbol.

The Samarra bowl, at the Pergamonmuseum, Berlin. The swastika in the centre of the design is a reconstruction. In England, neolithic or Bronze Age stone carvings of the symbol have been found on Ilkley Moor, such as the Swastika Stone. Mirror-image swastikas (clockwise and anti-clockwise) have been found on ceramic pottery in the Devetashka cave, Bulgaria, dated to 6,000 BCE.

Some of the earliest archaeological evidence of the swastika in the Indian subcontinent can be dated to 3,000 BCE. Investigators have also found seals with "mature and geometrically ordered" swastikas that date to before the Indus Valley Civilisation (3300–1300 BCE).

Gilan; Samarra bowl, by Dbachmann - Self-photographed, CC BY-SA 4.0, File:Samarra bowl.jpg - Wikimedia Commons Armenia; China; Hands of Svaroga, Poland, Oseberg Shi (Viking - 800 BCE), Norway; Corinth coin (600 BCE); Mycenian doll (16-1,100 BCE); Attican pottery, 780 BCE;
See more at: Swastika - Wikipedia. Forget about Kipling.

Fabulous. Thank you for posting.

 

[Harel13]

So Abraham ruined his father's business? (Oy gevalt!)

Exactly.

 

[sooda]

Exactly.

Historically it could also have been considered a symbol or design.

 

[Harel13]

Historically it could also have been considered a symbol or design.

I was talking about idols in general in what you replied to. @Jedster was referring to a midrash that says that Abraham's father Terach ran an idol shop and after Abraham "discovered" God, he went and destroyed all of the shop's idols, thereby ruining his father's business.

But if we go back to the swastika, it really depends on what it would have symbolized. If the Middle East only ever knew it was an abstract artistic design, then, sure, fine, use it as art. But if they knew it had significance as an idolatrous pagan symbol, then that is a problem.

 

[MikeDwight]

When was there a correct architecture though? See my Scottish parthenon avatar, the Athena shrine turned into a virgin Mary church in the 400's I think, until the Ottomans or Venice I forget, 1400's. All our language of Church Architecture is romanist. Romanesque architecture involves that perfectly smooth arch from the aqueducts, and the blasphemous "Gothic " , such as, the Paris Notre Dame, named after the literal 400ad invaders of Rome. That's the main language of Church architecture, the sanctuary, the steeple... etc... buttresses.. That's why I'm interested in the First Church of Korea and other places, so symbolic. Have you guys looked at modernization efforts of Korean houses, like windows , an 1880 innovation . for Churches.

 

[Wurlitzer Oz]

Religious Architecture:

There is the giant Jesus of the Mobile Antenna statue, in Swiebodzin, Poland:

Or this amazing church:

Or the wonderful Chicke Church in Indonesia:

Apparently in Cork, Ireland:

 

[Harel13]

The synagogue does not have the Swastika symbol, it is the Hindu neighbor on the left. I mentioned 'Synagogue on the right'.

This subject was kinda floating around in my head for the last few days. Anyway, I completely misread your posts and only realized that today... I thought that all the pictures you showed were of synagogues... Oops.
Okay, so Cochin Jews have a synagogue next to a building with swastikas. What do we know about the synagogue? It could have been built before the swastikas were put in. It's possible that that was the only place they had for a synagogue. There could be many reasons why the synagogue is there. That doesn't mean usage of a swastika - to Jews/by Jews - is okay.

Now, regarding the Star of David:
Like the cross, like the swastika, like many other pretty basic symbols - it doesn't take a genius to "create" it. The Star is compromised of two triangles, one on top of the other.
So while it's possible that the first recorded history of the hexagram, as you say, was in some far-off pagan culture (far from Jews, I mean), it doesn't mean that the symbol reached Judaism as a pagan one. It makes more sense, I think, that it was thought of by Jews (apparently Kabbalists) as a symbol with Jewish meaning, without prior knowledge of its significance in other cultures. Which is why it remains a Jewish symbol.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The synagouge is a neighbor to a Hindus house. Yeah, the Swastika must have come much later as a symbol of the neighbors faith. The Jews had a whole town to themselves near the Cochin fort. The well-adjusted Indian Jews must have taken it as fun. They have been around there for a long time and before that time in Kodungallur. All Hindus respect the synagogue as a symbol of peaceful adjustment of a foreign community in India. The other communities also which adjusted peacefully in India without loosing their character are the early Muslims and Christians of South India and the Zoroastrians in Gujarat. You may read about Indian Jews in Wikipedia. There are several articles.

"The Paradesi Synagogue is the oldest active synagogue in the Commonwealth of Nations, located in Kochi, Kerala, in South India.(The first synagogue in India was built in the 4th century in Kodungallur (Cranganore) when the Jews had a merchantile role in the South Indian region (now called Kerala) along the Malabar coast. When the community moved to Kochi in the 14th century, it built a new synagogue there.) Constructed in 1568, it is one of seven synagogues of the Malabar Yehudan or Yehudan Mappila people or Cochin Jewish community in the Kingdom of Cochin. Paradesi is a word used in several Indian languages, and the literal meaning of the term is "foreigners", applied to the synagogue because it was built by Sephardic or Spanish-speaking Jews, some of them from families exiled in Aleppo, Safed and other West Asian localities. It is also referred to as the Cochin Jewish Synagogue or the Mattancherry Synagogue."

No, the Hexagram is not just a jewish symbol. It is a Hindu symbol too. We have been using it just as anciently.

To us, both the Swastika and the Hexagram are sacred. Hexagram is associated with Mother Goddes Durga. It is known as "Shakti Yantra" (Power Machine). Ours is many a times more complicated and varied for each God or Goddess. The simle one shown below is known as "Batuk Bhairav Yantra", associated with a form of Shiva. A Hexagram is generally drawn on ground where any Hindu ritual will take place along with Swastika and Om to sanctify the ground.

https://www.google.co.in/search?q=S...GHSH2DUcQsAR6BAgJEAE&biw=1581&bih=756#imgrc=_

 

[Harel13]

The well-adjusted Indian Jews must have taken it as fun

Maybe, maybe not. They didn't necessarily have a choice in the matter. I think there's a difference between tolerance and actually agreeing/being okay with something.

No, the Hexagram is not just a jewish symbol

Did I ever say it was? What I'm saying is that there are two versions of the same symbol which sprouted up in two different cultures which does not necessarily mean that the two use that symbol for the same reason.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Maybe, maybe not. They didn't necessarily have a choice in the matter. I think there's a difference between tolerance and actually agreeing/being okay with something.

What I'm saying is that there are two versions of the same symbol which sprouted up in two different cultures which does not necessarily mean that the two use that symbol for the same reason.

Indians fought some of the toughest battles in WWII against Axis powers and lost some 87,000 soldiers. "In 1939 the British Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men." India in World War II - Wikipedia

The Jews never ever faced any discrimination in India in their alleged 2,500-year history. And we are proud of that.
"While some Jews state their ancestors arrived in India during the time of the Kingdom of Judah, others identify themselves as descendants of Israel's Ten Lost Tribes." - History of the Jews in India - Wikipedia

The star, five pointed or six pointed, like the Swastika is a simple attractive geometric figure. Many cultures have used it.

 

[Harel13]

Indians fought some of the toughest battles in WWII against Axis powers and lost some 87,000 soldiers. "In 1939 the British Indian Army numbered 205,000 men. It took in volunteers and by 1945 was the largest all-volunteer force in history, rising to over 2.5 million men." India in World War II - Wikipedia

The Jews never ever faced any discrimination in India in their alleged 2,500-year history. And we are proud of that.
"While some Jews state their ancestors arrived in India during the time of the Kingdom of Judah, others identify themselves as descendants of Israel's Ten Lost Tribes." - History of the Jews in India - Wikipedia

The star, five pointed or six pointed, like the Swastika is a simple attractive geometric figure. Many cultures have used it.

Great stuff, but we don't disagree on any of this.
What we do disagree on is whether or not Jews should/can use the swastika and whether or not the Star of David is a pagan symbol. I think Jews can't use the swastika, for reasons previously seated on this thread. As for the Star of David, clearly this uncomplicated symbol was thought of by different cultures and religions, disconnected from each other. To each their own meaning. In Hebrew it's not even called a star, it's called Magen David, the Shield of David.

 

[Aupmanyav]

Great stuff, but we don't disagree on any of this.
What we do disagree on is whether or not Jews should/can use the swastika and whether or not the Star of David is a pagan symbol. I think Jews can't use the swastika, for reasons previously seated on this thread. As for the Star of David, clearly this uncomplicated symbol was thought of by different cultures and religions, disconnected from each other. To each their own meaning. In Hebrew it's not even called a star, it's called Magen David, the Shield of David.

Welcome if the Jews do not use Swastika. The reason is well-known and not difficult to understand. But there is no reason for them to hate Hindu Swastika, which is entirely different and by name signifies Universal Welfare. These symbols were used even before Hinduism or Judaism came up. Jews also had pagan ancestors.

"Despite the imposing fame associated with Moses, no source mentions him until he emerges in texts associated with the Babylonian exile. A theory developed by Cornelis Tiele in 1872, which has proved influential, argued that Yahweh was a Midianite god, introduced to the Israelites by Moses, whose father-in-law Jethro was a Midianite priest. It was to such a Moses that Yahweh reveals his real name, hidden from the Patriarchs who knew him only as El Shaddai. Against this view is the modern consensus that most of the Israelites were native to Palestine. Martin Noth argued that the Pentateuch uses the figure of Moses, originally linked to legends of a Transjordan conquest, as a narrative bracket or late redactional device to weld together 4 of the 5, originally independent, themes of that work. Manfred Görg and Rolf Krauss, the latter in a somewhat sensationalist manner, have suggested that the Moses story is a distortion or transmogrification of the historical pharaoh Amenmose (c. 1200 BCE), who was dismissed from office and whose name was later simplified to msy (Mose). Aidan Dodson regards this hypothesis as "intriguing, but beyond proof." Rudolf Smend argues that the two details about Moses that were most likely to be historical are his name, of Egyptian origin, and his marriage to a Midianite woman, details which seem unlikely to have been invented by the Israelites; in Smend's view, all other details given in the biblical narrative are too mythically charged to be seen as accurate data." - Moses - Wikipedia

Medianites: Through their apparent religio-political connection with the Moabites they are thought to have worshipped a multitude, including Baal-peor and the Queen of Heaven, Ashteroth. - Midian - Wikipedia

 

[Harel13]

Jews also had pagan ancestors

I read this and I thought: Oh, you're referring to Abraham's ancestors. But then I saw what you quoted. Listen, no believing Jew thinks that God was originally part of some random pantheon. So I'm going to politely disregard those "experts".

But there is no reason for them to hate Hindu Swastika

It's a pagan symbol, is it not (being part of Hinduism)? We don't do pagan symbols.

 

[Aupmanyav]

As I said, welcome, your choice.
There is this difference. I never disagree with experts. If they say Gita and Mahabharata were written around the beginning of the Christian era and were not written around 3,102 BCE as Hindus generally believe, I agree with them. There are reasons why the experts say so.

 

[Harel13]

As I said, welcome, your choice.
There is this difference. I never disagree with experts. If they say Gita and Mahabharata were written around the beginning of the Christian era and were not written around 3,102 BCE as Hindus generally believe, I agree with them. There are reasons why the experts say so.

You're welcome to as well. However, for me to accept the article you brought would be heresy, or dangerously close to it.