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Odds are we're living in the Matrix and religion is false

9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Okay... the title was a bit of hyperbole.

Some theorists are saying that the odds are almost certain that we live in a universe simulation. The argument goes like this:

- there is only one "real" universe
- there's no known limit on the number of "simulated" universes
- there's no known reason why a universe simulation couldn't itself contain simulated universes (etc., etc., ad infintum)
- therefore, there may be uncountably many "fake" universes but only one "real" one.
- therefore, the odds that the universe we're in is the "real" one is incalculably small.


I was thinking about it, and a similar argument applies to religion. Let's assume that it's possible that evidence for the truth of religious claims might exist, and that it points to a particular religion.

- maybe it's evidence of the truth of that religion (whatever it is)
- maybe it's been put in place as a ruse to deceive us by the "real" gods (maybe Satan, Loki, or some other evil or trickster god)

So... even for the religion that has the best case for it, there's only one way for it to be right and incalculably many ways for it to be wrong. Therefore, the odds are strongly against even the most well-supported religion being correct.

Thoughts (on either argument)?
 
Revoltingest

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
People are always talking about probability when they've no basis to calculate it or even compare it for different options.
This "Matrix" stuff is all idle speculation. But what really discredits it is something known to few. Here's the story.

My looney fundie mechanic's assistant tells me that we're heading towards the Matrix soon. How will we get there, I asked?
Electronic books! Obama & his fellow conspirators will change the words so that we lose all connection to reality.
This is the kind of person who takes sci fi movies far too seriously.

Ya canna make up stuff like this!
 
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F

freethinker44

Well-Known Member
I saw a video on Youtube a few years ago, which I can't find again for the life of me, and it was a refutation of Pascal's wager. Or at least the part of it that says it's better to be religious "just in case". Anyways, they were saying it's flawed because it only accounts for two beliefs, but if we account for all belief systems, in the end if we are just playing the odds then it's better to be atheist. I wish I could find it again.
 
bobhikes

bobhikes

Nondetermined
Premium Member
For either argument why does it start with there is only 1. For me that statement assumes a lot.

I read the article and it doesn't give any reason why "So...we're either living in the only real universe". I mean we only know of this universe but how can we be sure there aren't any more.

Same goes for God, why does there have to be one, perhaps that is what religions have wrong their god is not the only god. Only God for them perhaps.
 
Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
Why would they think there's a "real" universe anywhere? I personally think that all of life is just a waking collective form of a dream and that the afterlife isn't much different. It's all a series of illusions created by our consciousness.
 
Awkward Fingers

Awkward Fingers

Omphaloskeptic
There are seven billion people on earth, and only one of me.
Therefore, the odds that I actually AM me is a staggering one in seven billion!
Horrible odds!!!

...are the philosophers putting this out there just trying to show that philosophy is highly overrated, as a means of logic?? >.>
 
Ivan-Michael

Ivan-Michael

Member
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Okay... the title was a bit of hyperbole.

Some theorists are saying that the odds are almost certain that we live in a universe simulation. The argument goes like this:

- there is only one "real" universe
- there's no known limit on the number of "simulated" universes
- there's no known reason why a universe simulation couldn't itself contain simulated universes (etc., etc., ad infintum)
- therefore, there may be uncountably many "fake" universes but only one "real" one.
- therefore, the odds that the universe we're in is the "real" one is incalculably small.


I was thinking about it, and a similar argument applies to religion. Let's assume that it's possible that evidence for the truth of religious claims might exist, and that it points to a particular religion.

- maybe it's evidence of the truth of that religion (whatever it is)
- maybe it's been put in place as a ruse to deceive us by the "real" gods (maybe Satan, Loki, or some other evil or trickster god)

So... even for the religion that has the best case for it, there's only one way for it to be right and incalculably many ways for it to be wrong. Therefore, the odds are strongly against even the most well-supported religion being correct.

Thoughts (on either argument)?
Click to expand...
maybe it's been put in place as a ruse to deceive us by the "real" gods (maybe Satan, Loki, or some other evil or trickster god).
Deceive, YES, it's a big yes, not by Gods, rather, by people, members of the ruling houses.
When you read the bible extremely carefully you find that the Lord, YHVH is speaking to a group of people called ISRAEL, or, 'the HOUSE OF JACOB'.
It is important, because it is a ruling HOUSE.
By their rules, they are obliged to show us what they are doing, it's the concept of 'clean hands', and if we are too stupid to 'see', then it is our fault, they cannot be blamed.
The word Jacob, in Hebrew Ya'Akov, mean: One who will follow with the intention to deceive, ask his brother Esau.
The bible is full of concepts that by design, in order to keep us in the fantasy, are not explained to us properly.
It starts with the concept of God and continues all the way through.
However, once you see the real meaning of words like YHVH, garden, rivers, Eden, water, Adam, Adamah, Eve (Hava), Moses, Yehoshuah, etc. etc. you get a different picture and you can also understand the concepts of the 'laws', for it is primarily a 'legal' book that was written for and by a HOUSE, a ruling House.
As for the 'one verse', one hymn sheet, maybe it is not as they keep pushing on us, perhaps we are inhabiting the inside of the EYE of whoever.
The 'heavens' are in the center and we are around it.
It could be that the center is only 6000 miles away.
In light of their little game which is being exposed daily, it is ok to suspect that most of what we were told and read from books is false, and that characters like Copernicus and Galileo were mere actors, manufactured legends.
Take the landing on the moon for example, where all 'astro boys' were found to be well known actors in disguise, or take the Martin Luther King fake assassination and JFK fake assassination. All "victims", 'killers" and 'witnesses' have been exposed as actors, some of whom claim royal heritage (makes sense).
We falsely 'believe' these stories. We don't have a single evidence to support those false 'beliefs'.
It has been 'reported' is the only FACT we have.
 
Iti oj

Iti oj

Global warming is real and we need to act
Premium Member
freethinker44 said:
I saw a video on Youtube a few years ago, which I can't find again for the life of me, and it was a refutation of Pascal's wager. Or at least the part of it that says it's better to be religious "just in case". Anyways, they were saying it's flawed because it only accounts for two beliefs, but if we account for all belief systems, in the end if we are just playing the odds then it's better to be atheist. I wish I could find it again.
Click to expand...

I've been makeing that argument for years now, haha always wins.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
freethinker44 said:
I saw a video on Youtube a few years ago, which I can't find again for the life of me, and it was a refutation of Pascal's wager. Or at least the part of it that says it's better to be religious "just in case". Anyways, they were saying it's flawed because it only accounts for two beliefs, but if we account for all belief systems, in the end if we are just playing the odds then it's better to be atheist. I wish I could find it again.
Click to expand...

I've also heard the argument that when Pascal's Wager is applied to many religions, you should choose the religion with the best Heaven and the worst Hell.

BTW: this happens to be the religion I invented (since I designed it that way), and according to it, all you need to do to win salvation is to be part of the team of people who take turns mowing my lawn. If we get enough followers, you'll only have to do it once in your life... kinda like the Hajj. :D
 
Reverend Rick

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Perhaps it is all about us and not about any particular god. Think of the wizard of Oz. "You have had the power to go home all along, just tap your heals three times and say, there's no place like home".

Native Indians go to the happy hunting ground, Pagans go to the Summerland, so on and so forth.

Perhaps death triggers a certain part of our brain and if you truly believe what ever you believe with all your heart, that is where you go, to another dimension.

The power of the brain is not completely understood but placebo drugs cure folks who truly believe the pill will work many times.

People have prayed disease away before.

The Bible says, "He who doubts is dammed". The power of positive thinking may hold some truths.

I believe we have the ability to do many supernatural things with our brains like communicate or ESP.

We might even have the power to part the seas or move an object with our brain or even turn water into wine.

In the Matrix movie, it was asked, "Do you think that is air you are breathing?"

This would discount Pascal's wager. If you truly believe something, perhaps it is true, not just one option that we would never be able to discern.

So everyone is right perhaps. If you believe you go nowhere, that is exactly where you go.

If you believe you burn in hell.......

If every tounge shall confess and you cannot tell a lie, you hold the truth as your mind understands things.

Theres no place like home, theres no place like home...........
 
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Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Okay... the title was a bit of hyperbole.

Some theorists are saying that the odds are almost certain that we live in a universe simulation. The argument goes like this:

- there is only one "real" universe
- there's no known limit on the number of "simulated" universes
- there's no known reason why a universe simulation couldn't itself contain simulated universes (etc., etc., ad infintum)
- therefore, there may be uncountably many "fake" universes but only one "real" one.
- therefore, the odds that the universe we're in is the "real" one is incalculably small.


I was thinking about it, and a similar argument applies to religion. Let's assume that it's possible that evidence for the truth of religious claims might exist, and that it points to a particular religion.

- maybe it's evidence of the truth of that religion (whatever it is)
- maybe it's been put in place as a ruse to deceive us by the "real" gods (maybe Satan, Loki, or some other evil or trickster god)

So... even for the religion that has the best case for it, there's only one way for it to be right and incalculably many ways for it to be wrong. Therefore, the odds are strongly against even the most well-supported religion being correct.

Thoughts (on either argument)?
Click to expand...

Actually, the Matrix is a dead on notion.

This reality is real enough. All that you perceive really is there.
But as it happens to be delivered through your senses and your senses are no more than electrical input......

The REAL reality is waiting for you....and you get to see it!
Just as soon as your chemistry fails!
 
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