Oh, jeez. "Racist" Walking Dead T-Shirt pulled due to complaints

[Epic Beard Man]

I do.

They have the right to be offended, to be "up in arms" and [REDACTED] about "subtle racism" all they want. But what gives them the right to pressure until the offending speech is removed from their delicate presence? That it's "2017 already"?

There is a difference between "free speech" and "consequential speech" (that is speech with consequences) we're not entirely free to say or do anything without repercussions. People often misconstrued freedom from government tyranny because one can exercise their "freedom" speak out against government, and speech that can cause harm and punishment. Speech is not free, it is decreed by law and very much by the larger society, the freedom aspect is the illusion.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Your link doesn't show racist origins.
Unless.....
Hana, man, mona, mike;
Barcelona, bona, strike;
Hare, ware, frown, vanac;
Harrico, warico, we wo, wac
.....means something more to you than to me.

You probably should've scrolled further but I'll take fault here since I did not actually quote the original nursery rhyme see the following:

Some older versions of this rhyme had the word ni**er instead of tiger:

Eeny, meena, mina, mo,
Catch a ni**er by the toe;
If he hollers let him go,
Eena, meena, mina, mo

See source: I. Opie and P. Opie, The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1951, 2nd edn., 1997), pp. 156-8.

Also in the same link:

"This version was similar to that reported by Henry Carrington Bolton as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888.[13] It was used in the chorus of Bert Fitzgibbon's 1906 song "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo":

Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo,
Catch a ****** by his toe,
If he won't work then let him go;
Skidum, skidee, skidoo.
But when you get money, your little bride
Will surely find out where you hide,
So there's the door and when I count four,
Then out goes you.

See source: B. Fitzgibbon, Words and music, "Eeny, meeny, miny, mo" F. B. Haviland Publishing Co (1906).

 

[Revoltingest]

You probably should've scrolled further but I'll take fault here since I did not actually quote the original nursery rhyme see the following:

Some older versions of this rhyme had the word ni**er instead of tiger:

Eeny, meena, mina, mo,
Catch a ni**er by the toe;
If he hollers let him go,
Eena, meena, mina, mo

See source: I. Opie and P. Opie, The Oxford Dictionary of Nursery Rhymes (Oxford: Oxford University Press, 1951, 2nd edn., 1997), pp. 156-8.

Also in the same link:

"This version was similar to that reported by Henry Carrington Bolton as the most common version among American schoolchildren in 1888.[13] It was used in the chorus of Bert Fitzgibbon's 1906 song "Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo":

Eeny, Meeny, Miny, Mo,
Catch a ****** by his toe,
If he won't work then let him go;
Skidum, skidee, skidoo.
But when you get money, your little bride
Will surely find out where you hide,
So there's the door and when I count four,
Then out goes you.

See source: B. Fitzgibbon, Words and music, "Eeny, meeny, miny, mo" F. B. Haviland Publishing Co (1906).

Non-racist versions precede the racist ones.

But what do you think of the way the rhyme is used.....to select a person to beat to death?
Is the racist inference the greater offense?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

There is a difference between "free speech" and "consequential speech" (that is speech with consequences)

All speech - free or not - is speech with consequences. All of life is consequences. You being offended at something does not grant you the right to revoke or repress it, however.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Non-racist versions precede the racist ones.

But what do you think of the way the rhyme is used.....to select a person to beat to death?
Is the racist inference the greater offense?

Well considering the time the lyrics were developed I don't think one supercedes the other. The connotations and inferences speak for themselves.

 

[Tumah]

Where has this pastor's mind been at that he automatically thinks it automatically jumps to a racist statement at the end and that "everybody knows" it automatically does so?
Whatever happened to "catch a tiger by its toe," or even just a children's playground game of picking someone who is "it?"

I didn't even know the rhyme was a choose-your-own-adventure type. I only knew the "catch a tiger by a toe" ending.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

All speech - free or not - is speech with consequences. All of life is consequences. You being offended at something does not grant you the right to revoke or repress it, however.

It sure does give me a right to make it clear that certain forms of speech aren't acceptable. I think when discussions concerning "freedom of speech" often times people tend to move goal posts to serve their needs. For example, I've seen some conservatives argue for free speech and that people ought to say anything, and criticize anything they want since we are in 'Murica, yet when the progressive left criticize Trump and his policies often times this is met with insults towards the left such as the common term "snowflake." I am a proponent of the belief that we are not free in the metaphorical, allegorical, or literal sense of the word, rather I believe we have laws and regulations that confine us to conformity. Simply put, as I've stated before, we have "free speech" insofar as we do not violate the law, as well as the rules of society

All speech - free or not - is speech with consequences. All of life is consequences. You being offended at something does not grant you the right to revoke or repress it, however.

Well in an arena where civil decency I established people do have the right to revoke speech. If you don't believe me go to your boss and tell him or her to f*ck themselves and that you wish you could blow their brains out.

 

[Revoltingest]

Well considering the time the lyrics were developed I don't think one supercedes the other. The connotations and inferences speak for themselves.

Inferences, by definition, never speak for themselves.
They're a choice, selected by the one who reads.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I didn't even know the rhyme was a choose-your-own-adventure type. I only knew the "catch a tiger by a toe" ending.

I've heard the offending version, but only maybe a few times, from people much older than I, and from people you'd rather not be associated with. Everybody else, as far as I know, save for school children trying to change it up every once in awhile, it's "catch a tiger by its toe."
Looking over Wiki, it turns out decades and centuries ago it was more common for people to use the "offending version." But that wasn't the common use or even original use. Apparently, it's pretty much impossible to track down the exact origins because the basic rhyme scheme/nonsense words/child's rhyme exist in languages other than English, such as the German:
Ene, tene, mone, mei
Pastor, lone, bone, strei,
Ene, fune, herke, berke,
Wer? Wie? Wo? Was?
As for those complaining of a racist history/connotations behind it, the thing may have even began as a rhyme in Swahili.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

It sure does give me a right to make it clear that certain forms of speech aren't acceptable.

To you. Certain forms of free speech aren't acceptable to you. Yet unless someone is threatening your life (and not in vague ways, but actually saying they plan to harm you specifically) or directly endangering the lives of others (yelling "fire" in a movie theater) there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Someone could be walking around with the most racially offensive shirt, or a shirt with profanity, or saying those things, and there's really not much you can do about it.

I know how this works; I have to provide customer service to an a**-hole who goes around wearing a [REDACTED] SS hat.

I am a proponent of the belief that we are not free in the metaphorical, allegorical, or literal sense of the word, rather I believe we have laws and regulations that confine us to conformity.

Well, until there's evidence for that, it's just your belief.

Simply put, as I've stated before, we have "free speech" insofar as we do not violate the law, as well as the rules of society

No, just the law. The rules of society don't stop anyone from wearing whatever they want or saying whatever they want. Even stuff that is racist and/or explicit. The only time such statements are punishable by the law is when they infringe upon the rights of others and/or threaten them with bodily harm - your example of me telling my boss that I wish I could blow their brains out. Other than that? Nothing, really.

 

[Kapalika]

this **** is really old, causing controvery. its just all you people who are offended by people being offended thats the problem. Historically it IS racist because that's how it started out and it's been used in the racist form for many years. Anyone who doesn't know about The Walking Dead could of easily made the mistake and I probably would of too because I hate stupid zombie shows.

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - Wikipedia

• In 1993, a high school teacher in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, provoked a student walkout when she asked her students about their poor test scores, "What did you do? Just go eeny, meeny, miny, moe, catch a ****** by the toe?" The school's district superintendent recommended the teacher "lose three days of pay, undergo racial sensitivity training, and have placed in her personnel file" along with a disciplinary pay cut.[18]

• A jocular use of a form of the rhyme by a Southwest Airlines flight attendant, encouraging passengers to sit down so the plane could take off, led to a 2003 lawsuit charging the airline with intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligent infliction of emotional distress. Two versions of the rhyme were attested in court; both "Eeny meeny miny mo, Please sit down it's time to go" and "Pick a seat, it's time to go". The passengers in question were African American and stated that they were humiliated due to what they called the "racist history" of the rhyme. A jury returned a verdict in favor of Southwest and the plaintiffs' appeal was denied.[19]

• In May 2014, an unbroadcast outtake of BBC motoring show Top Gear showed presenter Jeremy Clarkson reciting the rhyme and deliberately mumbling a line which some took to be "catch a ****** by his toe".[20] In response to accusations of racism, Clarkson apologised to viewers that his attempts to obscure the line "weren't quite good enough".[21]

• In 2017, the retailer Primark pulled a t-shirt from its stores that featured the rhyme overlayed with an image of The Walking Dead character Negan's baseball bat "Lucille." A customer, minister Ian Lucraft, had complained the t-shirt was "fantastically offensive" and claimed the imagery "relates directly to the practice of assaulting black people in America."[22]

 

[Revoltingest]

• In 2017, the retailer Primark pulled a t-shirt from its stores that featured the rhyme overlayed with an image of The Walking Dead character Negan's baseball bat "Lucille." A customer, minister Ian Lucraft, had complained the t-shirt was "fantastically offensive" and claimed the imagery "relates directly to the practice of assaulting black people in America."[22]

And though Negan beat to death a white guy & an Asian guy,
tis black folk who take offense.....or is it? We hear the carping,
but I haven't actually seen the people doing it. It could even be
white SJWs complaining on behalf of those they glom onto.

 

[Kapalika]

And though Negan beat to death a white guy & an Asian guy,
tis black folk who take offense.....or is it? We hear the carping,
but I haven't actually seen the people doing it. It could even be
white SJWs complaining on behalf of those they glom onto.

My point was that the quote has a long history of upsetting people as far back as the early 90's before this "SJW" craze or even the internet. You see, As was pointed out, the rhyme IS commonly racist.

If I was black I'd freak out too probably if I didn't know it was about the show. Without any obvious ways of it saying "The Walking Dead" or something who's to know? If they lived in a really racist area that might be the default way it's said, I know I've heard it at least once in person growing up by some other kid.

So ya, not knowing the context it seems really racist, you can't expect everyone to watch the show and "get it" why it's not racist. They pulled the shirt out of being more considerate not because it actually was racist.

 

[Revoltingest]

My point was that the quote has a long history of upsetting people as far back as the early 90's before this "SJW" craze or even the internet. You see, As was pointed out, the rhyme IS commonly racist.

If I was black I'd freak out too probably if I didn't know it was about the show. Without any obvious ways of it saying "The Walking Dead" or something who's to know? If they lived in a really racist area that might be the default way it's said, I know I've heard it at least once in person growing up by some other kid.

So ya, not knowing the context it seems really racist, you can't expect everyone to watch the show and "get it" why it's not racist. They pulled the shirt out of being more considerate not because it actually was racist.

I'd prefer that companies be less accommodating to shallow easily offended types.
After all.....what is not racist if one seeks out that inference?
I'm reminded of infamous feminist Sandra Harding, who pronounced Newton's "Principia Mathematica" a "rape manual".
Some people are simply determined to be offended.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Historically it IS racist because that's how it started out

No, it didn't. From the article that you linked, under Origins:

The first record of a similar rhyme is from about 1815, when children in New York City are said to have repeated the rhyme:

Hana, man, mona, mike;
Barcelona, bona, strike;
Hare, ware, frown, vanac;
Harrico, warico, we wo, wac.
The "Hana, man" was found by Henry Carrington Bolton in the US, Ireland and Scotland in the 1880s but was unknown in England until later in the century. Bolton also found a similar rhyme in German:

Ene, tene, mone, mei,
Pastor, lone, bone, strei,
Ene, fune, herke, berke,
Wer? Wie? Wo? Was?
Variations of this rhyme, with the nonsense/counting first line have been collected since the 1820s, such as this Scottish one:

Hickery Pickery, pease scon
Where will this young man gang?
He'll go east, he'll go west,
he'll go to the crow's nest.
Hickery Pickery, Hickery Pickery
More recognizable as a variation, which even includes the 'toe' and 'olla' from Kipling's version, is:

Eenie, Meenie, Tipsy, toe;
Olla bolla Domino,
Okka, Pokka dominocha,
Hy! Pon! Tush!
This was one of many variants of "counting out rhymes" collected by Bolton in 1888.

A Cornish version collected in 1882 runs:

Ena, mena, mona, mite,
Bascalora, bora, bite,
Hugga, bucca, bau,
Eggs, butter, cheese, bread.
Stick, stock, stone dead – OUT.
One theory about the origins of the rhyme is that it is descended from Old English or Welsh counting, similar to the old Shepherd's count "Yan Tan Tethera" or the Cornish "Eena, mea, mona, mite".

Another possibility is that British colonials returning from the Sub-Continent introduced a doggerel version of an Indian children's rhyme used in the game of carom billiards:

ubi eni mana bou,
baji neki baji thou,
elim tilim latim gou.
...

Another possible origin is from a Swahili poem brought to the Americas by enslaved Africans: Iino ya mmiini maiini mo.

Most likely the origin is a centuries-old, possibly Old Saxon diviner rhyme, as was shown in 1957 by the Dutch philologist dr. Jan Naarding, supported by prof. dr. Klaas Heeroma at the Nedersaksisch Instituut (Low Saxon Institute) at the University of Groningen. They published their findings in an article called Een oud wichellied en zijn verwanten (An old diviner rhyme and its relatives). In part I of the article Naarding explains, why the counting rhyme he found in Twents-Achterhoeks woordenboek (1948), a dictionary by G.H. Wanink, stands close to an early mediaeval or even older archetype. That same version was recorded in 1904 in Goor in Twente by Nynke van Hichtum:

Anne manne miene mukke,
Ikke tikke takke tukke,
Eere vrouwe grieze knech,
Ikke wikke wakke weg.
Naarding calls its origin 'a heathen priest song, that begs the highest goddess for an oracle while divining, an oracle that may decide about life and death of a human'. The first lines can be translated as 'foremother of mankind, give me a sign, I take the cut off pieces of a branch (= the rune wands)." This explanation was revived and extended in 2016 by Goaitsen van der Vliet, founder of the Twentse Taalbank (Twents Language Bank). The last line of the rhyme (in the Netherlands degenerated to 'iet wiet waait weg') can be translated as 'I weigh it up' (in Dutch 'ik wik en weeg').

 

[Shadow Wolf]

this **** is really old, causing controvery. its just all you people who are offended by people being offended thats the problem. Historically it IS racist because that's how it started out and it's been used in the racist form for many years. Anyone who doesn't know about The Walking Dead could of easily made the mistake and I probably would of too because I hate stupid zombie shows.

Eeny, meeny, miny, moe - Wikipedia

• In 1993, a high school teacher in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, provoked a student walkout when she asked her students about their poor test scores, "What did you do? Just go eeny, meeny, miny, moe, catch a ****** by the toe?" The school's district superintendent recommended the teacher "lose three days of pay, undergo racial sensitivity training, and have placed in her personnel file" along with a disciplinary pay cut.[18]

• A jocular use of a form of the rhyme by a Southwest Airlines flight attendant, encouraging passengers to sit down so the plane could take off, led to a 2003 lawsuit charging the airline with intentional infliction of emotional distress and negligent infliction of emotional distress. Two versions of the rhyme were attested in court; both "Eeny meeny miny mo, Please sit down it's time to go" and "Pick a seat, it's time to go". The passengers in question were African American and stated that they were humiliated due to what they called the "racist history" of the rhyme. A jury returned a verdict in favor of Southwest and the plaintiffs' appeal was denied.[19]

• In May 2014, an unbroadcast outtake of BBC motoring show Top Gear showed presenter Jeremy Clarkson reciting the rhyme and deliberately mumbling a line which some took to be "catch a ****** by his toe".[20] In response to accusations of racism, Clarkson apologised to viewers that his attempts to obscure the line "weren't quite good enough".[21]

• In 2017, the retailer Primark pulled a t-shirt from its stores that featured the rhyme overlayed with an image of The Walking Dead character Negan's baseball bat "Lucille." A customer, minister Ian Lucraft, had complained the t-shirt was "fantastically offensive" and claimed the imagery "relates directly to the practice of assaulting black people in America."[22]

From the same wiki article (instead of just the section about controversies):
"Eeny, meeny, miny, moe"—which can be spelled a number of ways—is a children's counting rhyme, used to select a person in games such as tag. It is one of a large group of similar rhymes in which the child who is pointed to by the chanter on the last syllable is either "chosen" or "counted out". The rhyme has existed in various forms since well before 1820,[1] and is common in many languages with similar-sounding nonsense syllables.


Since many similar counting rhymes existed earlier, it is difficult to ascertain this rhyme's exact origin.

 

[Revoltingest]

Some diversionary racism.....

Stinky slimy in a row.
Shadow Wolfie has a toe.
(Ten of them's the status quo.)
If she stubs one, holler D'oh!

 

[Epic Beard Man]

Inferences, by definition, never speak for themselves.
They're a choice, selected by the one who reads.

I guess you're blind to the literal lyric "catch a n***er by his toe? When you're not a minority it is easy to skim past the offensive racist language. It was outright offensive language end of discussion sir. I just posted the original language in the link. Your response ought to be" it was wrong," not having a drawn out discussion on what is more offensive.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

To you. Certain forms of free speech aren't acceptable to you. Yet unless someone is threatening your life (and not in vague ways, but actually saying they plan to harm you specifically) or directly endangering the lives of others (yelling "fire" in a movie theater) there's not a damn thing you can do about it. Someone could be walking around with the most racially offensive shirt, or a shirt with profanity, or saying those things, and there's really not much you can do about it.

I know how this works; I have to provide customer service to an a**-hole who goes around wearing a [REDACTED] SS hat.


Well, until there's evidence for that, it's just your belief.


No, just the law. The rules of society don't stop anyone from wearing whatever they want or saying whatever they want. Even stuff that is racist and/or explicit. The only time such statements are punishable by the law is when they infringe upon the rights of others and/or threaten them with bodily harm - your example of me telling my boss that I wish I could blow their brains out. Other than that? Nothing, really.

Don't know why you quoted me there is no such as free speech especially without consequences.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I guess you're blind to the literal lyric "catch a n***er by his toe? When you're not a minority it is easy to skim past the offensive racist language. It was outright offensive language end of discussion sir. I just posted the original language in the link. Your response ought to be" it was wrong," not having a drawn out discussion on what is more offensive.

I'm half black and not offended by the shirt or phrase. Don't try and speak for all of us.