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Ohio train de-railment, massive chemical spill/burn what's going with that?

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
The Ohio Railroad Disaster Is Forcing Pete Buttigieg Into the Hot Seat | Vanity Fair

Residents of East Palestine—the Ohio town where a train freighting toxic chemicals derailed this month, triggering health concerns and a national outcry—were hoping to get some answers at a town hall Wednesday night. But the rail company behind the incident didn’t show up. Norfolk Southern cited its concerns about “the growing physical threat to our employees and members of the community” in its rationale for skipping the event, while emphasizing that it was “committed” to addressing residents’ concerns. But for many in the town on the Ohio-Pennsylvania border, the company’s decision not to attend amounted to a snub.

“It is just a slap in the face,” one resident told CNN, “because the people who put us out are too afraid to show up to the meeting.”

They were supposed to have a town hall meeting about the disaster, but the officials from Norfolk Southern refused to show up, citing concerns over the physical threat to their employees.

That sense of uncertainty and abandonment has hung over East Palestine in the two weeks since the February 3 incident, in which dozens of freight cars—ten of which were transporting hazardous materials—derailed in a fiery crash. Residents were asked to evacuate the town days later to allow a controlled burn of vinyl chloride amid concerns the five cars transporting the cancer-causing chemical could explode. The evacuation order was lifted on February 8 and residents were told that air tests had consistently shown “readings at points below safety screening levels for contaminants of concern.” But health concerns have nevertheless remained, driven by reports of thousands of dead fish in waterways and expert warnings that a full understanding of the environmental impacts would require a more robust investigation. “I just don’t trust anybody,” one resident told the New York Times.


The incident has led to calls for stronger action from local, state, and national lawmakers, and has made for some strange political bedfellows in the process. “East Palestine railroad derailment will have a significant negative impact on the health and wellbeing of the residents for decades and there is almost zero national media attention,” progressive Representative Ilhan Omar wrote earlier this week. “We need Congressional inquiry and direct action from [Pete Buttigieg] to address this tragedy.”

It’s worth noting, as Buttigieg did this week, that freight companies have been “prioritizing” efficiency well before this administration. Concerns about precision-scheduled railroading, which may have contributed to the incident, led the Obama administration to establish new rules to “lessen the frequency and consequences” of freight accidents. But the industry, including Norfolk Southern, fought the new rule requiring special brakes on trains carrying hazardous materials, and the Trump administration officially junked it in 2017, on the basis that the “expected benefits…do not exceed the associated costs.” Had that rule been in place, a former senior official at the Federal Railroad Administration told USA Today, the East Palestine disaster may have been avoided. “ECP brakes would have avoided that monster pile up behind the derailed car,” the official, Steven Ditmeyer, told the outlet. “In fact, depending on when the crew got the (error) notice from the wayside detector, applying ECP brakes would have stopped everything very quickly.”
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I live about a hundred miles from where this happened. It's even under reported even here in Ohio. You would think it would be the #1 story all over the new, not many even know it happened or just learned about it.

They literally distracted everyone with a balloon.

CNN reported on it the next day after the accident.
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
I think it would be perceptive to notice that at this juncture, the 'right' is both talking about a potential environmental issue, and critiquing big business. These two things seem quite rare. But I don't think the 'left' should rub it in, if they are nice. Nor should they go the 'oppositism' route, if they are consistent. Instead, this would be a point in time where the left should try to show empathy on the issue. They might even get voters in the area if they did that. This issue is likely to be brought up in election debates, so the democrats should try to handle it well.
 
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Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Thankfully it wasn't one of those environmentally unfriendly pipelines that derailed. No, wait...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Can vinyl chloride be transported by pipeline?
I read that as broaching the issue of banning
pipelines, particularly regarding oil. This results
in alternatives that might be even worse, eg,
transporting crude by ship, rail, & truck.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member

That link refers to a pipeline built between Plaquemine LA and Addis LA, a distance of about 5 miles. Maybe it's feasible, although with a shorter distance, they'd be able to react more quickly in case of leakage or damage. It might be more problematic for a cross-country pipeline.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
NPR's coverage this morning was fascinating.
They blamed having too long a train with too few
locomotives because of greed, ie, profit.
The odd thing was that there was no mention of
the cause of derailment. They leapt to a cause
with no analysis or information whatsoever.
I suspect an anti-business bias.
This source lists a possible bearing failure, & a
solution to that, ie, trackside monitoring.
https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/sta...ook-at-the-investigation-and-rail-regulations
 

amorphous_constellation

Well-Known Member
NPR's coverage this morning was fascinating.
They blamed having too long a train with too few
locomotives because of greed, ie, profit.
The odd thing was that there was no mention of
the cause of derailment. They leapt to a cause
with no analysis or information whatsoever.
I suspect an anti-business bias.
This source lists a possible bearing failure, & a
solution to that, ie, trackside monitoring.
https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/sta...ook-at-the-investigation-and-rail-regulations

That big business wants to increase efficiency and production is/was the easy part. It was the stretching of physical laws beyond the limit, or the abuse of them, in one way or another, abstractly, that caused the problem. We should try not to miss the forest for the trees.
 

Shaul

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
That link refers to a pipeline built between Plaquemine LA and Addis LA, a distance of about 5 miles. Maybe it's feasible, although with a shorter distance, they'd be able to react more quickly in case of leakage or damage. It might be more problematic for a cross-country pipeline.
Huh. I knew there was a reason I wrote "Maybe". :cool:
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
That big business wants to increase efficiency and production is/was the easy part. It was the stretching of physical laws beyond the limit, or the abuse of them, in one way or another, abstractly, that caused the problem. We should try not to miss the forest for the trees.
What specifically caused the derailment?
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
NPR's coverage this morning was fascinating.
They blamed having too long a train with too few
locomotives because of greed, ie, profit.
The odd thing was that there was no mention of
the cause of derailment. They leapt to a cause
with no analysis or information whatsoever.
I suspect an anti-business bias.
This source lists a possible bearing failure, & a
solution to that, ie, trackside monitoring.
https://www.wcpo.com/news/state/sta...ook-at-the-investigation-and-rail-regulations

I have begun to wonder if domestic terrorists might be looking at this type of action. They have already shot up power substations showing they have no problem killing people. What is to stop them from derailing trains carrying chemicals?

Heck, even international terrorist might do something like this.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I have begun to wonder of domestic terrorism might be looking at this type of action. They have already shot up power substations showing they have no problem killing people. What is to stop them from derailing trains carrying chemicals?
I wondered the same thing.
Rails are too long to monitor everywhere.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I'm more interested, generally, in what is abstractly causing our problems. If I got bit by a mosquito in the woods, you could say that the problem was that I had a t-shirt on, or you could say that the woods I was in was full of them
Criticism has more value if it's not merely
general anti-business complaints.
Business & profit seeking won't go away.
All economic systems have such problems,
& mistakes are how people learn.
 

Wandering Monk

Well-Known Member
I'm more interested, generally, in what is abstractly causing our problems. If I got bit by a mosquito in the woods, you could say that the problem was that I had a t-shirt on, or you could say that the woods I was in was full of them

Or I could say, 'what did you expect, idiot?'
 

pearl

Well-Known Member
What specifically caused the derailment?

Good question, what may have contributed to the derailment? One observation, regulations or lack thereof;
  • During former President Barack Obama’s administration, the Department of Transportation enacted a rule requiring high-hazard cargo trains to be equipped with electronically controlled pneumatic brakes by 2023, allowing them to brake faster.

  • The Trump administration repealed this rule, citing government reports that found the cost of requiring these kinds of brakes was not economically justified.


    PolitiFact | Obama-era safety rule for high-hazard cargo trains was repealed under Trump
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Good question, what may have contributed to the derailment? One observation, regulations or lack thereof;
  • During former President Barack Obama’s administration, the Department of Transportation enacted a rule requiring high-hazard cargo trains to be equipped with electronically controlled pneumatic brakes by 2023, allowing them to brake faster.

  • The Trump administration repealed this rule, citing government reports that found the cost of requiring these kinds of brakes was not economically justified.


    PolitiFact | Obama-era safety rule for high-hazard cargo trains was repealed under Trump
I'm skeptical that electronics would be worthwhile
on rail cars, given the punishing service environment,
& vast number of cars relative to staff.
It could be cost effective, so I'd need more info to
offer judgement. I've worked in design of both
railroad train brakes & heavy truck brake control
system design. Trucks are ideal for electronic
controls supplementing pneumatic controls &
actuation. And that took decades to implement.
(Long interesting political story there.)

Controls seem unrelated to derailment issues.
I'd expect wheel failure, track defects, track sabotage,
& over-speeding to be far more likely.
 
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