Ok, I've had it with OWS

[Kilgore Trout]

Those people go home yet, or are they still hanging around doing whatever vague thing they're doing?

 

[Rakhel]

Those people go home yet, or are they still hanging around doing whatever vague thing they're doing?

They're still hanging around. Still demanding a foot hold, or even a string hold, onto some property here to call HQ. To no avail. The most they have done is get arrested for trespassing, after Trinity Wall Street told them they could not use church property.

 

[YmirGF]

The numbers don't lie! Do you want to pull up some numbers on what's happened to various income levels over the past 30 years to back up the right wing propaganda? Explain to me why wealth isn't trickling down, as claimed by supply-siders back when the claims of Friedmanomics were still relatively fresh and new?

Look, I get the impression that you are not an utter dimwit, however, where have I denied that that is not the case? Show me. What you don't seem inclined to enter into is how we get past that. Do you have a better solution? If so, what's the plan. I'm all ears. Sway me.

I've tried to explain to a few other faith-based libertarians that economics is not a religion.

Indeed. And since I can hardly be described as a "faith-based libertarian", your point to me is? According to a former head of the Bank of Canada, Economics isn't even a science though many give the illusion that it is.

You don't get to just make up your own facts like Ayn Rand did. They either have evidence or they don't; and the evidence supports the case that only the wealthiest have benefited from an economic system that accords more wealth and power upon those who already have it.

Again, I am not arguing that. THAT MUCH should be obvious to a person with the IQ of a carrot. My question is, "How do you change that?" You give me the impression that it will take a revolution. IF that is the case, with the stress being on IF, then what should take its place and who decides? The point is that OBVIOUSLY a new elite would emerge. They always do. Would they be better than the current elite? Would they care what we think? Would they bring about an economic Utopia? I'm thinking that they would not, but I am fairly certain that running the world might give them pause. In the meantime, while they get their collective act together... what happens to everyone else? Re-education camps?

What bugs me about all this blather is the horrid LACK of constructive ideas that have emerged. Would you like us to follow Europe off the cliff into the Nanny state of Financial Oblivion? Did somebody promise you a rose garden?

To recap, I am not arguing that there are not inequities in our current system. That much is, again, obvious. What I am ASKING is what these pontificating genius's would prefer to see in place of our current system. I guess the point is that I don't much trust politicians, but I do trust that they will function is a dysfunctional way. It is to be expected. Likewise, I do not trust the ability of a herd of human animals who think that tenting out on a city street is the brilliant way to effect change.

 

[dust1n]

A job is not an entitlement, I don't care what your degree is in. No society owes anyone a job - the individual still has to get out there, GET a job, and then do what it takes to maintain gainful employment and grow a career to meet individual goals and needs.

I'm not going to argue political science and where this stuff should supposedly fall in the grand scheme. All I know, is that unemployment, and the lack of available jobs that fit the skill set of a workforce, or is willing to provide training, is not good for anyone experiencing it, or hardly for society as a whole.

But then again, I have no idea what this even has to do with what you quoted. I'm still not impressed with anyone getting a job... it happens hundreds of thousands of times a month... I'm not sure if this response was suppose to be defending Rakhel's position... Also, I'm pretty sure that most people in OWS are outside in the cold for something more than their own personal employment or gain.

 

[dust1n]

Sit-ins will get nothing permanent accomplished; human representation in the government is the only way to begin the just destruction of the lobby corporatocracy.

Besides, any single flea-bitten self-entitled hippy is going to be miles ahead of any of the current GOP candidates in terms of sanity.

This is insanity... I swears it.

"
1958 Wichita and Oklahoma City sit-ins

The first organized lunch-counter sit-in for the purpose of integrating segregated establishments began in July 1958 in Wichita, Kansas with the Dockum Drug Store sit-in, which targeted a store in the old Rexall chain.[6] In early August the drugstore became integrated. A few weeks later on August 19, 1958 in Oklahoma City a nationally recognized sit-in at the Katz Drug Store lunch counter occurred. The Oklahoma City Sit-in Movement was led by NAACP Youth Council leader Clara Luper, a local high school teacher, and young local students, including Luper's eight-year old daughter, who suggested the Sit-in be held. The group quickly desegregated the Katz Drug Store lunch counters. It took several more years, but she and the students, using the tactic, integrated all of Oklahoma City's eating establishments. Today, in downtown Wichita, Kansas, stands a statue depicting a waitress at a counter serving people, honoring this pioneering sit-in.[7]
1960 Greensboro and Nashville sit-ins

Following the Oklahoma City sit-ins, the tactic of non-violent student sit-ins spread. The Greensboro Sit-In at a Woolworth's in Greensboro, North Carolina, on February 1, 1960, launched a wave of anti-segregation sit-ins across the South and opened a national awareness of the depth of segregation in the nation.[8] Within weeks, sit-in campaigns had begun in nearly a dozen cities, primarily targeting Woolworth's and S. H. Kress and other stores of other national chains.[9]


The largest, and best organized of these sit-in campaigns was the already ongoing, in terms of its planning and groundwork, Nashville sit-ins. They involved hundreds of participants, and led to the successful desegregation of Nashville lunch counters.[10] Most of the participants in the Nashville sit-ins were college students, and many, such as Diane Nash, James Bevel, Bernard Lafayette, and C.T. Vivian, went on to lead, strategize, and direct almost every aspect of the nation's Civil Rights Movement in the 1960s. The students of the historically black colleges and universities in the city played a critical role in implementing the Nashville sit-ins.
1989 Tiananmen Square Protests

Main article: Tiananmen Square protests of 1989


During the Tiananmen Square protests, sit-ins were staged in the square during the protests. There was also a sit-in on the morning of 18 April, as students sat in front of the Great Hall of the People, the office of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress; they demanded to see members of the Standing Committee. Meanwhile, a few thousand students gathered in front of the Zhongnanhai building complex, the residence of the government, demanding to see government leaders and get answers to their earlier demands. Students tried to muscle their way through the gate by pushing, but security and police, locking arms, formed a cordon that eventually deterred students' attempts to enter through the gate. Students then staged a sit-in. Some government officials did unofficially meet with student representatives, but without an official response, frustrations continued to mount. On 20 April, police finally dispersed the students in front of Zhongnanhai by force, employing batons, and minor clashes were reported."

"

Sit-in - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kathryn]

But then again, I have no idea what this even has to do with what you quoted. I'm still not impressed with anyone getting a job... it happens hundreds of thousands of times a month...

I have no idea what THIS has to do with my comment. My comments were about a job NOT being something that everyone is entitled to. Building a career is hard work -years of hard work. Landing and keeping a good job and building a career is nearly always the result of years of good decisions, personal responsibility, and a strong work ethic. I find those traits to be commendable.

 

[dust1n]

I must respectfully disagree. Anarchy is a useless political concept and we live, as a unit, in a world where the idea is that we live in a democratic republic; representative government and all that Enlightenment stuff.

The only real way to change is to enter the game and beat the rest, preferably with brickbats and fists, and get them all out.

Just because you can't find the use of a mental construct doesn't mean the construct is useless... :yawn:

"The IWW was founded in Chicago in June 1905 at a convention of two hundred socialists, anarchists, and radical trade unionists from all over the United States (mainly the Western Federation of Miners) who were opposed to the policies of the American Federation of Labor (AFL).



The convention, which took place on June 27, 1905, was then referred to as the "Industrial Congress" or the "Industrial Union Convention"—it would later be known as the First Annual Convention of the IWW.[6] It is considered one of the most important events in the history of industrial unionism.[6]


The IWW's first organizers included William D. ("Big Bill") Haywood, Daniel De Leon, Eugene V. Debs, Thomas J Hagerty, Lucy Parsons, "Mother" Mary Harris Jones, Frank Bohn, William Trautmann, Vincent Saint John, Ralph Chaplin, and many others.
The IWW's goal was to promote worker solidarity in the revolutionary struggle to overthrow the employing class; its motto was "an injury to one is an injury to all", which improved upon the 19th century Knights of Labor's creed, "an injury to one is the concern of all." In particular, the IWW was organized because of the belief among many unionists, socialists, anarchists and radicals that the AFL not only had failed to effectively organize the U.S. working class, as only about 5% of all workers belonged to unions in 1905, but also was organizing according to narrow craft principles which divided groups of workers. The Wobblies believed that all workers should organize as a class, a philosophy which is still reflected in the Preamble to the current IWW Constitution:

The working class and the employing class have nothing in common. There can be no peace so long as hunger and want are found among millions of the working people and the few, who make up the employing class, have all the good things of life. Between these two classes a struggle must go on until the workers of the world organize as a class, take possession of the means of production, abolish the wage system, and live in harmony with the Earth. We find that the centering of the management of industries into fewer and fewer hands makes the trade unions unable to cope with the ever growing power of the employing class. The trade unions foster a state of affairs which allows one set of workers to be pitted against another set of workers in the same industry, thereby helping defeat one another in wage wars. Moreover, the trade unions aid the employing class to mislead the workers into the belief that the working class have interests in common with their employers. These conditions can be changed and the interest of the working class upheld only by an organization formed in such a way that all its members in any one industry, or in all industries if necessary, cease work whenever a strike or lockout is on in any department thereof, thus making an injury to one an injury to all. Instead of the conservative motto, "A fair day's wage for a fair day's work," we must inscribe on our banner the revolutionary watchword, "Abolition of the wage system." It is the historic mission of the working class to do away with capitalism. The army of production must be organized, not only for everyday struggle with capitalists, but also to carry on production when capitalism shall have been overthrown. By organizing industrially we are forming the structure of the new society within the shell of the old.[7]
​

The Wobblies differed from other union movements of the time by its promotion of industrial unionism, as opposed to the craft unionism of the American Federation of Labor. The IWW emphasized rank-and-file organization, as opposed to empowering leaders who would bargain with employers on behalf of workers. This manifested itself in the early IWW's consistent refusal to sign contracts, which they felt would restrict workers' abilities to aid each other when called upon. Though never developed in any detail, Wobblies envisioned the general strike as the means by which the wage system would be overthrown and a new economic system ushered in, one which emphasized people over profit, cooperation over competition.


One of the IWW's most important contributions to the labor movement and broader push towards social justice was that, when founded, it was the only American union (besides the Knights of Labor) to welcome all workers including women, immigrants, African Americans and Asians into the same organization. Indeed, many of its early members were immigrants, and some, like Carlo Tresca, Joe Hill and Mary Jones, rose to prominence in the leadership. Finns formed a sizeable portion of the immigrant IWW membership. "Conceivably, the number of Finns belonging to the I.W.W. was somewhere between five and ten thousand."[8] The Finnish-language newspaper of the IWW, Industrialisti, published out of Duluth, Minnesota, was the union's only daily paper. At its peak, it ran 10,000 copies per issue. Another Finnish-language Wobbly publication was the monthly Tie Vapauteen ("Road to Freedom"). Also of note was the Finnish IWW educational institute, the Work People's College in Duluth, and the Finnish Labour Temple in Port Arthur, Ontario which served as the IWW Canadian administration for several years. One example of the union's commitment to equality was Local 8, a longshoremen's branch in Philadelphia, one of the largest ports in the nation in the WWI era. Led by the African American Ben Fletcher, Local 8 had over 5,000 members, the majority of whom were African American, along with more than a thousand immigrants (primarily Lithuanians and Poles), Irish Americans, and numerous others.


The IWW was condemned by politicians and the press, who saw them as a threat to the market systems as well as an effort to monopolize labor at a time when efforts to monopolize industries were being fought as anti-market. Factory owners would employ means both non-violent (sending in Salvation Army bands to drown out speakers) and violent means to disrupt their meetings. Members were often arrested and sometimes killed for making public speeches, but this persecution only inspired further militancy.

...

 

[dust1n]

(continuing on...)


By 1912 the organization had around 25,000 members,[12] concentrated in the Northwest, among dock workers, agricultural workers in the central states, and in textile and mining areas. The IWW was involved in over 150 strikes, including the Lawrence textile strike (1912), the Paterson silk strike (1913) and the Mesabi range (1916). They were also involved in what came to be known as the Wheatland Hop Riot on August 3, 1913.


Between 1915 and 1917, the IWW's Agricultural Workers Organization (AWO) organized more than a hundred thousand migratory farm workers throughout the Midwest and western United States,[13] often signing up and organizing members in the field, in rail yards and in hobo jungles. During this time, the IWW member became synonymous with the hobo riding the rails; migratory farmworkers could scarcely afford any other means of transportation to get to the next jobsite. Railroad boxcars, called "side door coaches" by the hobos, were frequently plastered with silent agitators from the IWW. Workers often won better working conditions by using direct action at the point of production, and striking "on the job" (consciously and collectively slowing their work). As a result of Wobbly organizing, conditions for migratory farm workers improved significantly.[citation needed]


Building on the success of the AWO, the IWW's Lumber Workers Industrial Union (LWIU) used similar tactics to organize lumberjacks and other timber workers, both in the deep South and the Pacific Northwest of the United States and Canada, between 1917 and 1924. The IWW lumber strike of 1917 led to the eight-hour day and vastly improved working conditions in the Pacific Northwest. Even though mid-century historians would give credit to the US Government and "forward thinking lumber magnates" for agreeing to such reforms, an IWW strike forced these concessions.[14]
From 1913 through the mid-1930s, the IWW's Marine Transport Workers Industrial Union (MTWIU), proved a force to be reckoned with and competed with AFL unions for ascendance in the industry. Given the union's commitment to international solidarity, its efforts and success in the field come as no surprise. Local 8 of the Marine Transport Workers was led by Ben Fletcher, who organized predominantly African-American longshoremen on the Philadelphia and Baltimore waterfronts, but other leaders included the Swiss immigrant Waler Nef, Jack Walsh, E.F. Doree, and the Spanish sailor Manuel Rey. The IWW also had a presence among waterfront workers in Boston, New York City, New Orleans, Houston, San Diego, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Eureka, Portland, Tacoma, Seattle, Vancouver as well as in ports in the Caribbean, Mexico, South America, Australia, New Zealand, Germany and other nations. IWW members played a role in the 1934 San Francisco general strike and the other organizing efforts by rank-and-filers within the International Longshoremen's Association up and down the West Coast.


Wobblies also played a role in the sit-down strikes and other organizing efforts by the United Auto Workers in the 1930s, particularly in Detroit, though they never established a strong union presence there.


Where the IWW did win strikes, such as in Lawrence, they often found it hard to hold onto their gains. The IWW of 1912 disdained collective bargaining agreements and preached instead the need for constant struggle against the boss on the shop floor. It proved difficult, however, to maintain that sort of revolutionary elán against employers. In Lawrence, the IWW lost nearly all of its membership in the years after the strike, as the employers wore down their employees' resistance and eliminated many of the strongest union supporters. In 1938, the IWW voted to allow contracts with employers,[15] so long as they would not undermine any strike."


"The few own the many because they possess the means of livelihood of all ... The country is governed for the richest, for the corporations, the bankers, the land speculators, and for the exploiters of labor. The majority of mankind are working people. So long as their fair demands - the ownership and control of their livelihoods - are set at naught, we can have neither men's rights nor women's rights. The majority of mankind is ground down by industrial oppression in order that the small remnant may live in ease." - Helen Keller, IWW member, 1911[9]

Industrial Workers of the World - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



On second thought, it does sound pretty useless, doesn't it? :sleep:

 

[dust1n]

Hold on, I'm not quite done with the uselessness of it all...

"The Wheatland Hop Riot, an important and highly-publicized event in California labor history, was the second major labor dispute in the United States supposedly initiated by the Industrial Workers of the World. A bloody clash occurred at the Durst Ranch in Wheatland, California on August 3, 1913, climaxing growing tensions brought about by the difficult conditions farm laborers at the ranch endured. The riot resulted in four deaths and many injuries. It focused public opinion for the first time on the plight of California's agricultural laborers, and resulted in new state legislation to regulate labor camp conditions. A new State Commission on Immigration and Housing was created to help improve working conditions. The Wheatland Hop Riot was also the first major farm labor confrontation in California and a harbinger of decades of attempts to organize or control agricultural labor.

Durst advertised for 3000 hop pickers and other seasonal agricultural workers, though he only needed half that number -- in order to drive wages down. Of a $1.50/ day wage, $0.78 - $1.00 was withheld from the workers' pay. If a worker didn't stay till the end of the season, Durst kept that withheld money. Durst then had the workers harassed, cheated, and abused to try to make them leave before the end of the season. The strikers demanded water twice a day, separate bathrooms for men and women, and higher pay. During a speech by Richard "Blackie" Ford, the Yuba County sheriff and a group of over 100 vigilantes fired into the crowd of workers, causing the riot. Two workers, a deputy, and the district attorney were killed. The National Guard was ordered into the area and 100 workers arrested.[1]"

Wheatland Hop Riot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[dust1n]

I have no idea what THIS has to do with my comment. My comments were about a job NOT being something that everyone is entitled to.

Right, which makes no sense considering you quoted me originally when I was talking to Rahkel about how little sense what her comments are making... I was literally replying to her saying that if everyone in OWS went out with a sign for indefinite amount of time asking for a job in their current situation, than they would be more effective at... pushing their message... or making it more acceptable for her type? I'm not even really sure... she stopped addressing me for an undisclosed reason.

Building a career is hard work -years of hard work. Landing and keeping a good job and building a career is nearly always the result of years of good decisions, personal responsibility, and a strong work ethic. I find those traits to be commendable.

Yeah, right. Landing a good job is a series of foot-in-door scenarios, schemes of tax-ride offs, preceding wealth of natural and/or inherent ability, luck, desperation, etc.... not to say that the things you mentioned aren't involved. "Nearly always" is hyperbole.

I guess this conversation can steer this way since Rahkel isn't going to respond to me anyway.

 

[Rakhel]

Her type? It's so horrible if anyone agrees with me? WOW. is all I can say.
How do you know what my type is? Is it the rich type? Or is it the "Jew"? Maybe it's the Zionist type.
Perhaps its the "I call bull **** type?
No. I know which type it is.
It's the "she's rich Zionist Jew who doesn't agree with me, so she's a dumb as is everyone that agrees with her" type.
My type. Disgusting.
Dustin, I am surprised why you just don't get why I don't find anything you have to say of great importance

 

[dust1n]

Those people go home yet, or are they still hanging around doing whatever vague thing they're doing?

Heh.

Priest Nearly arrested at council meeting | Fox10tv.com

[youtube]MApjMm-I9_E[/youtube]
Father Nathan Monk at Pensacola City Council - YouTube

 

[dust1n]

Economics isn't even a science though many give the illusion that it is.

Who said it was?

 

[Revoltingest]

Her type? It's so horrible if anyone agrees with me? WOW. is all I can say.
How do you know what my type is? Is it the rich type? Or is it the "Jew"? Maybe it's the Zionist type.
Perhaps its the "I call bull **** type?
No. I know which type it is.
It's the "she's rich Zionist Jew who doesn't agree with me, so she's a dumb as is everyone that agrees with her" type.
My type. Disgusting.
Dustin, I am surprised why you just don't get why I don't find anything you have to say of great importance

It's obvious.
You're one of those people.
I've seen your type....using words to say things.....breathing, no matter who it offends.

 

[Rakhel]

It's obvious.
You're one of those people.
I've seen your type....using words to say things.....breathing, no matter who it offends.

<sigh> What can I say?:nightcraw:
If I haven't offended someone, my day is just over. OVER I tell ya.:sad4:

 

[dust1n]

Her type? It's so horrible if anyone agrees with me? WOW. is all I can say.
How do you know what my type is? Is it the rich type? Or is it the "Jew"? Maybe it's the Zionist type.
Perhaps its the "I call bull **** type?
No. I know which type it is.
It's the "she's rich Zionist Jew who doesn't agree with me, so she's a dumb as is everyone that agrees with her" type.
My type. Disgusting.
Dustin, I am surprised why you just don't get why I don't find anything you have to say of great importance

This is sad. I don't know anything about you. I was referring to the content of your post. "Your type" was an expression to refer to people who contend to the same content. But since you possess the immaculate dialect, I'm still wondering who you fail to hold a single bit of logic in the few posts you have left. Honestly, I've slept 2 1/2 hours tonight, and have been working 11 hour days all week, including another one in a couple of hours, I didn't even realize I typed "her type," then again I haven't have coffee. Stuffing all the things you infer from what I say into whatever I am saying is entirely offensive, and honestly pathetic. And I still will not stoop low enough to insult you...

 

[Revoltingest]

Even one of the Monarch's greatest minions must sleep.
Get off this forum & catch some Zs, lest you get sick.

 

[dust1n]

It's obvious.
You're one of those people.
I've seen your type....using words to say things.....breathing, no matter who it offends.

Are you perpetuating this sadness? GO back and read the ******* posts. I think I'm trying to be pretty fair in assessing the situation.

Jeez, and I thought you one to read things fairly and promote tolerance in conversation.

 

[Revoltingest]

Are you perpetuating this sadness? GO back and read the ******* posts. I think I'm trying to be pretty fair in assessing the situation.
Jeez, and I thought you one to read things fairly and promote tolerance in conversation.

I'm just having fun.
I likes all youz guyz.
(The "using words to say things" is a Homer Simpson quote I wanted to trot out. The bit about "breathing" is for Songbird.)

I get sick if I have too much stress & too little sleep.
Get some......sleep, that is.

 

[dust1n]

Even one of the Monarch's greatest minions must sleep.
Get off this forum & catch some Zs, lest you get sick.

Appreciate your concern. But I would appreciate it more if you looked into the actual posts (or at least commented more on what you saw lest you are withholding insight onto how much you are seeing) than my sleeping habits.