Old Earth vs Young Earth Debate

[Native]

No. If you were honest and wanted to learn I would have no problem helping you.

Do you think that you can be honest? Remember, you have displays a middle school or worse level of science literacy here. To be honest you need to at the very least be willing to work some math.

I don´t care about your personal and emotional matters at all.

 

[Native]

I could not make head or tail of this response. Apple consists of a set of atoms. An apple is simply a rearrangement of a set of atoms that existed previously and that had come together to form the structure we classify as apple. The same four forces of nature (electromagnetic, gravitational, electroweak and strong) have always acted on the atoms that today make up the apple and in whatever previous structures these atoms were in before the apple came together.
The ceaseless motion of atoms from one configuration to the next is explained by the fact that the universe is not in thermodynamic equilibrium. Specifically for earth, sunlight provides a source of high energy photons that bombard the atoms of the earth and drives them through ceaseless perturbations from one structure to the next. Photons interact with atomic electrons through the electromagnetic force. So, its the action of the electromagnetic force emanating from energetic solar photons that causes earth's atom to flow as they do.

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I in fact agree with your elaborations here.

My prime focus is just that the gravitational ide was/is founded by the observation of the very FALL of an apple, which obviously isn´t the full explanation and not the correct one either.

As you said electromagnetism and even atmospheric pressure have its influences in this question.

 

[sayak83]

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I in fact agree with your elaborations here.

My prime focus is just that the gravitational ide was/is founded by the observation of the very FALL of an apple, which obviously isn´t the full explanation and not the correct one either.

As you said electromagnetism and even atmospheric pressure have its influences in this question.

The apple had very little to do with discovery of gravity. Newton probably invented that story as it is absent in all his earlier writings.
But the acceleration of any freely falling body in an evacuated space is 9.81 m/s^2 towards the ground at sea level, and this is due to the gravitational force of the earth.

 

[Native]

The apple had very little to do with discovery of gravity. Newton probably invented that story as it is absent in all his earlier writings.
But the acceleration of any freely falling body in an evacuated space is 9.81 m/s^2 towards the ground at sea level, and this is due to the gravitational force of the earth.

Why would Newton invent such a story? Well never mind.

In the real nature there is no such thing as "an evacuated space", is there? Even in outher space this cannot be found. What are the properties and numbers of atmospheric pressure?

 

[sayak83]

Why would Newton invent such a story? Well never mind.

In the real nature there is no such thing as "an evacuated space", is there? Even in outher space this cannot be found. What are the properties and numbers of atmospheric pressure?

You can get a vacuum pump and eliminate all air well enough that air resistance resistance becomes small. That's the reason for using an evacuated space... to eliminate drag by air molecules.

 

[Polymath257]

Why would Newton invent such a story? Well never mind.

In the real nature there is no such thing as "an evacuated space", is there? Even in outher space this cannot be found. What are the properties and numbers of atmospheric pressure?

Well, even interplanetary space is much more 'evacuated' than anything we can get in a lab on Earth. One molecule of hydrogen in every cubic meter in interstellar space is pretty rarefied.

But even the lab vacuums are good enough to remove most of the effects of air pressure.

Air pressure? you can look up the daily variations in your area in weather reports. But we are looking at around 25 septillion molecules of air in a cubic meter under normal conditions.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I don´t care about your personal and emotional matters at all.

All you had to do was to say that you could at least try to be honest and to try to learn. Instead you try to attack those that would help you. No wonder that you cannot learn.

 

[Subduction Zone]

--------------------------
I in fact agree with your elaborations here.

My prime focus is just that the gravitational ide was/is founded by the observation of the very FALL of an apple, which obviously isn´t the full explanation and not the correct one either.

As you said electromagnetism and even atmospheric pressure have its influences in this question.

The effect of an atmosphere is obvious. What electromagnetic effect is there. Why did you say ""even atmospheric pressure" (bolding mine) when there is no "even" about it?

 

[Polymath257]

--------------------------
I in fact agree with your elaborations here.

My prime focus is just that the gravitational ide was/is founded by the observation of the very FALL of an apple, which obviously isn´t the full explanation and not the correct one either.

As you said electromagnetism and even atmospheric pressure have its influences in this question.

E&M has no bearing once the apple starts to fall. It is relevant in the molecules of the step in keeping the apple *from* falling.

Air will also affect the rate of fall because of friction.

I think you don't really comprehend what newton's advance was. he didn't discover gravity. Everyone knew that apples fell from trees. What newton figured out is that the same force that makes apples fall is the one that keeps the moon in orbit. THAT was a fundamental connection: universal gravitation (not just gravitation in a sub-lunar realm).

 

[Native]

You can get a vacuum pump and eliminate all air well enough that air resistance resistance becomes small. That's the reason for using an evacuated space... to eliminate drag by air molecules.

OK

 

[Native]

Air pressure? you can look up the daily variations in your area in weather reports. But we are looking at around 25 septillion molecules of air in a cubic meter under normal conditions.

My original question was this

What are the properties and numbers of atmospheric pressure?

I found this myself here Atmospheric Pressure as I was interested in the average weight numbers and how it changes up through the Earth atmosphere.

 

[Native]

All you had to do was to say that you could at least try to be honest and to try to learn. Instead you try to attack those that would help you. No wonder that you cannot learn.

You confuse an alternative approach as personal attacks which isn´t a good thing in discussions.

 

[Native]

E&M has no bearing once the apple starts to fall. It is relevant in the molecules of the step in keeping the apple *from* falling.

Air will also affect the rate of fall because of friction.

No E&M has no measurable effect on the falling apple, only in the building process of it. That is: E&M sort of overcome the Earth gravitation in this stage.

The air friction is of course at play, but so does the overall atmospheric pressure, which is significant.

 

[Native]

I think you don't really comprehend what newton's advance was. he didn't discover gravity. Everyone knew that apples fell from trees. What newton figured out is that the same force that makes apples fall is the one that keeps the moon in orbit. THAT was a fundamental connection: universal gravitation (not just gravitation in a sub-lunar realm).

I wish you didn´t determined Newton´s idea of gravity as an "universal gravitation". Einstein refuted this remember? (And so do I)

Just think of it: Isn´t it a bit of a guesswork to conclude that the falling apple and the moon was/is governed by the same force when this assumed force at a certain distance outside the Earth atmosphere is almost non existent?

 

[Subduction Zone]

You confuse an alternative approach as personal attacks which isn´t a good thing in discussions.

If your alternative approach produced any results then you would have a valid reason for advocating it. But it doesn't. It is mere worthless handwaving and wild "donkeyed" speculation .

 

[Subduction Zone]

I wish you didn´t determined Newton´s idea of gravity as an "universal gravitation". Einstein refused this remember? (And so do I)

Just think of it: Isn´t it a bit of a guesswork to conclude that the falling apple and the moon was/is governed by the same force when this assumed force at a certain distance outside the Earth atmosphere is almost non existent?

The word you wanted to use was "refuted". Einstein corrected Newton, he did not refute him. Newton's Law was accurate enough to get us to the Moon and back. And you can't refute Newton's Law. You cannot refute that which you do not understand.

 

[Polymath257]

I wish you didn´t determined Newton´s idea of gravity as an "universal gravitation". Einstein refused this remember? (And so do I)

No, Einstein *improved* on it. But Einstein still accepted universal gravitation.

Just think of it: Isn´t it a bit of a guesswork to conclude that the falling apple and the moon was/is governed by the same force when this assumed force at a certain distance outside the Earth atmosphere is almost non existent?

THERE IS GRAVITY OUTSIDE OF THE ATMOSPHERE! It is quite far from being non-existent!

 

[Polymath257]

No E&M has no measurable effect on the falling apple, only in the building process of it.

Good. So we can agree that we can ignore it when asking how the apple falls, right?

That is: E&M sort of overcome the Earth gravitation in this stage.

Yes. So?

The air friction is of course at play, but so does the overall atmospheric pressure, which is significant.

Yes. So?

 

[sealchan]

The Genesis account does not state the timeframe between the creation of the "heavens and the earth" and the events that prepared the earth for habitation.

Genesis 1:1....."In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
This is a singular statement.....a time when God created matter...the physical universe with all that it contains.

Then in verse 2 it speaks about the state of the planet before God began to work on it.....

"2 Now the earth was formless and desolate, and there was darkness upon the surface of the watery deep, and God’s active force was moving about over the surface of the waters."

The creative 'days' were not 24 hour periods, but could have been epochs of perhaps millions of years, wherein God accomplished by increments, all the creative processes he had planned.

The first thing God did was allow light to penetrate the darkness of the earth's surface. With the earth's rotation, light and dark became obvious and were named day and night. We have no way of knowing if humans knew about any of this prior to Moses writing of Genesis. The book of Job has some insights, but it too was written by Moses.

The Bible says that the earth at first was covered in water and then God created an atmosphere where eventually creatures would live and breathe the air( in just the right mixture of gases) that he created there. There was water on the surface of the earth and also above it. No air or water (vital for life) would ever escape into space because God created a way for it to be retained and replenished, perpetually.

Dry land would also make a division in the oceans and various forms of vegetation were the first living things to be created. That is not to say that bacteria wasn't created first, but not mentioned in the creation account. They were never supposed to be a problem for humans, but part of the process of recycling that God put in place to keep the earth from being engulfed by rotting dead material. "Nature" takes care of death by taking everything back into the earth to regenerate it. It was a masterful system....pure genius!

Then God apparently cleared away the remaining cloud layers so that the "luminaries" (sun, moon and stars that he created along with the earth) became visible in the sky for the first time. (Job 38:8-9)

By the 4th "day" things were ready for sentient creatures to appear....and finally man. So with each 'increment' of creation, preparation was made for what came next. By the time sentient creatures arrived on the scene there was already habitats, food, water and air ready for them. All they had to do was reproduce their kind to replace the ones that died naturally. The natural cycle of life and death in the animal kingdom ensured continued life for many other creatures.

The Bible's account makes plenty of room for an old earth and a very long creative process. It just depends on how you interpret the word "yohm" (day) It is clear that it doesn't just mean a 24 hour period because included in the Genesis account (chapter 2:4) which says...."This is a history of the heavens and the earth in the time they were created, in the day that Jehovah God made earth and heaven." The whole creative process is spoken of as taking place in one "day".

By the time of man's appearance, many creatures (like the dinosaurs) had become extinct, perhaps because they had served a purpose for a time and were no longer needed? God knows but he did not tell us all the details. I am sure he will one day.

If you mean to re-define day, why not open the whole story to such re-definitions? Why use it as a basis of understanding at all?

 

[sealchan]

The 7 days were by the Light of Genesis 1:3; it was not solar days. Therefore we don't know. I'm not saying it was a long time or a short time. Just God's time. The Light was a supernatural Light. It was essentially the Light of God. So all things are made in 7 periods of the Light of God shining; inter-spaced by darkness in-between (called night).

These 7 periods of Light and darkness symbolize all the ages of the world to come. Ending in rest which is going to be eternal rest in God's finished creation. The creation of God is not finished yet because God has not yet rested in the new Jerusalem. This final rest of God was symbolized in the 7th day and when Solomon built the temple of God in Zion. They said "Arise, O Jehovah, to Thy rest, Thou, and the ark of Thy strength,"

But God said of Solomon's temple "Thus saith Jehovah, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?"

So it became evident that no physical temple could give rest to a God like Jehovah who the skies could not even contain.

So, the new Jerusalem is what God is building. Jesus said "I go to prepare a place for you" what He did not say there is that this place is us. Yes, those who are the elect are the new Jerusalem. God will only rest in us because altogether as a great house for God with incarnate Jesus as the chief cornerstone we can express all the nature of the unfathomable and infinite God. So He will have rest in us. As it is written "Jehovah thy God in the midst of thee is mighty; he will save, he will rejoice over thee with joy; he will rest in his love, he will joy over thee with singing."

So the rest(the 7th day) is the whole reason God made the world. Because God is love (1 John 4:8) and love must have something to love or it may not rest.

And if we want we can join His rest also. He says "Behold I make all things new". So we can be made new. Those who are saved in Jesus are the true new Jerusalem when we are made new. As God said "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

It will be a glorious rest. (Isaiah 11:10)

So how do you explain away "and there was evening, and there was morning"'s?