Old Testament Questions

[Vyruufin]

The "Old Testament" is Jewish Scripture. It was written by Jewish authors, in the Jewish language, for Jews, to be interpreted using Jewish interpretive techniques.

The "New Testament" is Christian Scripture. It was written around five hundred years later than the Hebrew Scriptures, primarily by non-Jews, for non-Jews, in non-Jewish languages, in service of theological and philosophical agenda that are distinctively Christian, not Jewish.

Jewish scriptures often seem confusing, impenetrable, or contrarian to Christians because they are attempting to read them in translations (usually made by non-Jews, and seldom very accurate with reference to the idioms, metaphors, images, wordplay, and poetry of the Hebrew originals), without the elucidating lens of the Oral Torah (the ancient traditions of how to interpret the scriptures, at first passed down orally, then set in writing by the original Rabbis in the Talmud and the Midrash), through which the Written Torah was designed to be read and interpreted. Many of the laws and directives that seem arbitrary or unjust to Christian readers seem so because they don't understand how they were actually intended to be interpreted and implemented-- that information is not self-explanatory in the written text.

But most importantly, Jewish scriptures seem difficult to Christians because Christian Bibles attempt-- either in translation or through eisegetic commentary-- to read Jewish text Christologically, trying to force Jewish text into a framework which it simply was not designed to fit. It works no better than trying to interpret the Quran as a Hindu text-- which is to say, not at all.

I see, I finally realized that.

I guess there's more to life than jut A-B-C.

Damn I feel like an idiot..

 

[Super Universe]

So yeah, this has been on my mind for quite some time now. Is the O.T false? Now first off, the style of writing and ideology greatly differs from the N.T and in the O.T, in the O.T God has told the Jews to kill all Akkadians and encouraged slavery. God supposedly promoted racial segregation, murder, rape and many other horrible crimes which were completely denied in the N.T

Now In the N.T it has been told that Christ put an end to the O.T when he died at the cross, and the whole 'I did not come to abolish but to complete' takes on a whole different meaning if you read it in Greek/Hebrew. The thing is, the only obstacle between me and Christianity is the O.T. I find the N.T to be beautiful and touching, but the O.T seems to be too childish/genocidal for my taste. Remember that God is portrayed as loving and caring in the N.T, however in the O.T he seems to act like the Zeus: Jealous, paranoid and if anything murderous.

I've seen a couple of religious arguments about the morality of the bible and I see that the common argument is mainly against the O.T, I rarely come across anything about the N.T

Now I'm not exactly a bible scholar, but is the N.T heavily supportive of the O.T? I don't see it like that but I'd like to see if any argument like this is valid. Also should we consider the society during that time? Would the Jews have listened to Christ if he simply denied everything they've been holding on to for the past 2000 years? And couldn't directly tell them it was false? Is it part of a greater plan?

The Old Testament is much more primitive than the New Testament. The Jewish religious leaders were trying to control their people through their religious writings. God did not tell the Jews to kill Akkadians or anyone else, the Jewish religious leaders just said that.

No one knew why natural events happened back then so they were thought to be "Acts of God", even today they are still called that but God sent no plagues, or storms. The religious leaders used these unknown things to promote their own agenda which was to control the people.

The reason the Jews did not accept Christ was because they wanted and fully expected the Messiah to lead them to victory over the Romans and make them powerful. Christ did not come to give the Jews power over other men. Christ came to tell everyone about His Father.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

The Old Testament is much more primitive than the New Testament. The Jewish religious leaders were trying to control their people through their religious writings. God did not tell the Jews to kill Akkadians or anyone else, the Jewish religious leaders just said that.

No one knew why natural events happened back then so they were thought to be "Acts of God", even today they are still called that but God sent no plagues, or storms. The religious leaders used these unknown things to promote their own agenda which was to control the people.

The reason the Jews did not accept Christ was because they wanted and fully expected the Messiah to lead them to victory over the Romans and make them powerful. Christ did not come to give the Jews power over other men. Christ came to tell everyone about His Father.

Wow
Wow
and Wow

 

[Levite]

But most importantly, Jewish scriptures seem difficult to Christians because Christian Bibles attempt-- either in translation or through eisegetic commentary-- to read Jewish text Christologically, trying to force Jewish text into a framework which it simply was not designed to fit. It works no better than trying to interpret the Quran as a Hindu text-- which is to say, not at all.

The Old Testament is much more primitive than the New Testament. The Jewish religious leaders were trying to control their people through their religious writings. God did not tell the Jews to kill Akkadians or anyone else, the Jewish religious leaders just said that.

No one knew why natural events happened back then so they were thought to be "Acts of God", even today they are still called that but God sent no plagues, or storms. The religious leaders used these unknown things to promote their own agenda which was to control the people.

The reason the Jews did not accept Christ was because they wanted and fully expected the Messiah to lead them to victory over the Romans and make them powerful. Christ did not come to give the Jews power over other men. Christ came to tell everyone about His Father.

Yes, just like this. Thank you for that excellent example.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God did not tell the Jews to kill Akkadians ...

Well, at least that part is true.

 

[dantech]

Well, at least that part is true.

:yes:

 

[Ivan-Michael]

So yeah, this has been on my mind for quite some time now. Is the O.T false? Now first off, the style of writing and ideology greatly differs from the N.T and in the O.T, in the O.T God has told the Jews to kill all Akkadians and encouraged slavery. God supposedly promoted racial segregation, murder, rape and many other horrible crimes which were completely denied in the N.T

Now In the N.T it has been told that Christ put an end to the O.T when he died at the cross, and the whole 'I did not come to abolish but to complete' takes on a whole different meaning if you read it in Greek/Hebrew. The thing is, the only obstacle between me and Christianity is the O.T. I find the N.T to be beautiful and touching, but the O.T seems to be too childish/genocidal for my taste. Remember that God is portrayed as loving and caring in the N.T, however in the O.T he seems to act like the Zeus: Jealous, paranoid and if anything murderous.

I've seen a couple of religious arguments about the morality of the bible and I see that the common argument is mainly against the O.T, I rarely come across anything about the N.T

Now I'm not exactly a bible scholar, but is the N.T heavily supportive of the O.T? I don't see it like that but I'd like to see if any argument like this is valid. Also should we consider the society during that time? Would the Jews have listened to Christ if he simply denied everything they've been holding on to for the past 2000 years? And couldn't directly tell them it was false? Is it part of a greater plan?

Hi, we need to pay a close attention when we read the story.
In the story (OT) God (Elohim) is different to Lord (YHVH, Adonai).
It is the Lord or Lord God who is jealous etc. God (Elohim, the Mind) is not like that at all.
when we see the meanings of words used in the Bible you get a whole different view of the script. It is a script, like a play, the world's a stage and we are but mere players, actors. The books tell us what's what so we would know how to act in life - Manners, or as the Greeks called it mania-insanity, depends how you wish to conduct your life.
It is important to see the symbols and the words correctly for us to stop the confusion.
Read: God=Mind, light, intelligence, Father of Heaven.
Lord= YHVH, Adonai, (Baal in Hebrew, even if they deny it), the procreative cycle, Lord of Earth, Darkness pain, Death.
Ex,3, spot the difference between God and Lord, now that you can see it from a different perspective, see how the Lord captures Moses' attention and what he tells him, The Lord becomes God, or LordGod.

 

[Desert Snake]

Christianity is a separate religion from Judaism, not a continuation of it.

That's not how I view it, ........Old Covenant--> New Covenant makes perfect sense to me.
That being said I agree that we can't view the OT from an entirely Chriatian perspective, I don't.

 

[Ivan-Michael]

Actually it's the same old same the worship of Mithra, for whatever it is worth.
it's also the worship of YHVH evidenced by the fertility symbols, Obelisks and domes, in the Vatican Jerusalem and elsewhere. Islam is also connected to the same concept, they have an added spiral of the galaxy ritual around the Kaaba which is a demonstration of the female energy.

 

[Ivan-Michael]

not covenant, testament as in the last will and testament, really, a mind virus.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Actually it's the same old same the worship of Mithra, for whatever it is worth.

We've been there before. The association with Mithra is wholly worthless internet lore. See, for example, The Roman Cult Of Mithras.

 

[Infinitum]

Hi, we need to pay a close attention when we read the story.
In the story (OT) God (Elohim) is different to Lord (YHVH, Adonai).
It is the Lord or Lord God who is jealous etc. God (Elohim, the Mind) is not like that at all.
when we see the meanings of words used in the Bible you get a whole different view of the script. It is a script, like a play, the world's a stage and we are but mere players, actors. The books tell us what's what so we would know how to act in life - Manners, or as the Greeks called it mania-insanity, depends how you wish to conduct your life.
It is important to see the symbols and the words correctly for us to stop the confusion.
Read: God=Mind, light, intelligence, Father of Heaven.
Lord= YHVH, Adonai, (Baal in Hebrew, even if they deny it), the procreative cycle, Lord of Earth, Darkness pain, Death.
Ex,3, spot the difference between God and Lord, now that you can see it from a different perspective, see how the Lord captures Moses' attention and what he tells him, The Lord becomes God, or LordGod.

Whoa, let's slow down here. Linguistically what you're saying doesn't make any sense. Elohim is one of the oldest words for God and has roots in the Canaanite main god El (Elohim is grammatically a plural word). YHWH on the other hand is what's known as a tetragrammaton and is derived from the sentence "I am that I am", which was the answer God gave Moses when asked for his identity. Adonai on the other hand is a title, simply translated as Lord and is the common replacement for YHWH when reading scripture aloud.

What you need to understand about Baal is that it isn't a Hebrew word to start with. It too is a remnant from Canaanite (Semitic, to be linguistically correct) language, signifying "lord" or "master". A god could be Baal of storms, for example, or a more common example Baal Zebub (Beelzebub), lord of flies. Therefore Baal (ba'al) and Adonai are valid synonyms and the only reason not to use them next to each other is to make a difference between Pagan deities and the Jewish God.

PS. I'm not a native Hebrew speaker, so if anyone finds mistakes in my posts, please correct me.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

What you need to understand about Baal is that it isn't a Hebrew word to start with. It too is a remnant from Canaanite (Semitic, to be linguistically correct) language, signifying "lord" or "master". A god could be Baal of storms, for example, or a more common example Baal Zebub (Beelzebub), lord of flies. Therefore Baal (ba'al) and Adonai are valid synonyms ...

Good point.

 

[Ivan-Michael]

Whoa, let's slow down here. Linguistically what you're saying doesn't make any sense. Elohim is one of the oldest words for God and has roots in the Canaanite main god El (Elohim is grammatically a plural word). YHWH on the other hand is what's known as a tetragrammaton and is derived from the sentence "I am that I am", which was the answer God gave Moses when asked for his identity. Adonai on the other hand is a title, simply translated as Lord and is the common replacement for YHWH when reading scripture aloud.

What you need to understand about Baal is that it isn't a Hebrew word to start with. It too is a remnant from Canaanite (Semitic, to be linguistically correct) language, signifying "lord" or "master". A god could be Baal of storms, for example, or a more common example Baal Zebub (Beelzebub), lord of flies. Therefore Baal (ba'al) and Adonai are valid synonyms and the only reason not to use them next to each other is to make a difference between Pagan deities and the Jewish God.

PS. I'm not a native Hebrew speaker, so if anyone finds mistakes in my posts, please correct me.

I get your point.
Not easy to explain, it takes some doing.
The teachings of the Bible would make more sense to you if you could see the script for what it is and the players for who they are.
I had a few 'break downs' in reality in the last couple of years, I used to think and see like you, well, almost.
I don't mean to upset anyone but it is inevitable, as Krishna Murti said; 'The 'truth' will upset you free'.
First, read the Bible with extreme cautiousness, Ex.3 4 And when the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said: 'Moses, Moses.' And he said: 'Here am I.'
Only after Moses was distracted and strayed from the path did YHVH called him and told him whatever he liked because Moses' Mind was not his own anymore.
This is how they do it to us on a daily basis, it's a guide book for some.

YHVH is the flame of pro-creation, like the 'Shofar (horn) the Jews use to blow on their new year, it is: Gen.1 11 And God said: 'Let the earth put forth grass, herb yielding seed, and fruit-tree bearing fruit after its kind, wherein is the seed thereof, upon the earth.' Bold type explains the concept of YHVH in people too.

Elohim is plural because of the plurality of the Mind, 2 main brain lobes, check the Caduceus.
We are told many things, I tend to read the book and use what I learned from the 'Law' and I only use 5 senses, once I do that I can use a bit of imagination that is free from dogmas shoved down my throat as a young child.
I was passed through the fire to Molech (the ruler) at school, they burnt the disc called my mind, but evidently the 'job' was flawed, because 50 years later I can see their game.
It's a cross and double cross game.
Last August I was told by a Kabalist in Tel Aviv to pay more attention, a lowly cab driver, would you believe, yes, they come to you in all different forms.
I went away, it took me a day to see my mistake, and bingo, of course, the Bible makes sense.
Baal, Hebrew is Husband, the ownner, Lord, Adonai-my Lord.
YHVH- the procreative cycle.
Y- concious will (hand) Male, H-Upper female, v Vav- Child, Vav spins and multiplies opposite, creates a Het, an enclosure, as in marriage, the joining of man and woman creating a child, and then comes the lower H-female, which joins the Y Yod in Hebrew which completes the cycle.
YHVH is not just linear it is also cyclical, a spiral, like the galaxy, male female created them, the continuation of life, that is why you see all the sexual symbols everywhere, in the Vatican and every majour city in the world. The gates of the churches, the towers etc.
Mon-Santo took away the cyclical creation and instead give us monster seeds, they now conrol the seed's YHVH.
By the way; one should only UNDERSTAND one's own Mind, Father, God, Please don't ask me to stand under your mind or command, it is offensive, I try with all my heart not to use that word any more, it belongs with those who confounded the language.
We are told to see the word Baal as the bad guy.
This is not about good or bad, it's about seeing the concepts and what they mean.
Ba-spirit, Al-El, in the spirit of El, El is not exactly Elohim, missing a few letters, the lower Lord takes over the higher God, the Hormonal system takes over the Mind, the nervous system.

I can see the tricky times ahead, trying to get people to see the deception in the teachings of the script.
It's easier to fool people than to unfool them, not entirely our fault, our minds were burnt at schools and churches and sunagogues and madrasas at a young age, when: Gen 2,6 "but there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground". For earth read body, still children, pre pubescent, best time to indocrinate.
PS. Hebrew is a made up language from old Ugarit, so I read, the history we are told is written by who knows, Hebrew was never meant to be a spoken language, now it is, still full of confounding and the way I was taught the Bible and History was very much like you, left me with a lot of confusion and not knowing, once you read the 'Law' and its history, you start seeing differently.

 

[Ivan-Michael]

We've been there before. The association with Mithra is wholly worthless internet lore. See, for example, The Roman Cult Of Mithras.

The worship of Mithra, some claim, came from Persia, others say present day Turky, I visited the 'Dome of the Rock' years ago, went inside, had a look and went down stairs to the cave below the surface of the rock, nothing there exept for a few women praying.
I now suspect that the rock where Mithra emerged from was that particular rock and I am sorry to upset the Jews or Christians and Moslems, who believe that the temple of solomon although dedicated to YHVH could be in actual fact the temple of Mithra and always has been but we were told otherwise.
Ask, who burnt the temple in Jerusalem, not the Romans, the Zealots did, or somone else, but not the Roman.
Another question; How did Titus get hold of the Menorah as depicted in the Gate named after him in Rome if the Temple was burnt to the ground, could it be an 18th century fake fascad?
besides, who or what is this Mithra?
Who was his mother? Cybele? Also worshipped by the Romans, where did she come from? The middle east, or Turky?
We don't get a straight and honest story in our books and TV programms, or for that matter in our religious indocrinations.
Who did the Jevusites worship in Shalem?
Why is Mithra stabbing the Bull, what is the Bull?
Many question and so far only guesses for answers.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

:snoopy:

 

[Desert Snake]

The worship of Mithra, some claim, came from Persia, others say present day Turky, I visited the 'Dome of the Rock' years ago, went inside, had a look and went down stairs to the cave below the surface of the rock, nothing there exept for a few women praying.
I now suspect that the rock where Mithra emerged from was that particular rock and I am sorry to upset the Jews or Christians and Moslems, who believe that the temple of solomon although dedicated to YHVH could be in actual fact the temple of Mithra and always has been but we were told otherwise.
Ask, who burnt the temple in Jerusalem, not the Romans, the Zealots did, or somone else, but not the Roman.
Another question; How did Titus get hold of the Menorah as depicted in the Gate named after him in Rome if the Temple was burnt to the ground, could it be an 18th century fake fascad?
besides, who or what is this Mithra?
Who was his mother? Cybele? Also worshipped by the Romans, where did she come from? The middle east, or Turky?
We don't get a straight and honest story in our books and TV programms, or for that matter in our religious indocrinations.
Who did the Jevusites worship in Shalem?
Why is Mithra stabbing the Bull, what is the Bull?
Many question and so far only guesses for answers.

Isn't this mixing up different Near/middle East groups a bit? I find that when I look up these subjects there is usually an explanation such as 'The Assyrians believed this'...etc. and it gets mixed up in Judaic belief...I'm not the expert here, your posts are interesting

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Isn't this mixing up different...

Actually, 'mixed up' is a particularly appropriate term here. :yes:

 

[Infinitum]

Ivan-Michael,
While what you say might be a valid personal interpretation of the Bible, it has no basis in history or linguistics. I'm looking at the text from a purely anthropological viewpoint, which means the two of us have very little in common. There is a vast mass of resources and studies out there, showing exactly how the Bible came to be and swiping all that away in favour of speculation is simply not an option for any serious student. If you want to take a look at the real history, I'm sure there are plenty of posters here who know where to direct you.

 

[John Martin]

Dear Sir,
In the scriptures we find the evolution of human consciousness. Scripture is not static but dynamic. When we read the OT we discover how the human consciousness is constantly falling from the highest divine human relationship with God. Adam and Eve walked with God in the cool of the evening. They had no religion,no scripture, no pries, no prophet, no rituals. They lived a natural life. Slowly this relationship disappears, then religion comes,prophets come, scripture comes, priests come and rituals come. The way we experience God and understand God depends on the level of consciousness we are. The Jewish tradition was very much a dualistic religion and also an exclusive religion. They project God according to their level. We cannot avoid that.
Jesus Christ had gone beyond this dualistic relationship and entered into non-dualistic relationship with God. He said, the Father and I are one'. His God was God of all. He saw the whole creation as the manifestation of God. He saw everyone as the child of God. This is the fulfillment of the OT, growing from the exclusive God to inclusive God, from being creatures of God into becoming Sons and daughters of God and ultimately one with God. No experience can go beyond that level. In the OT it is relationship of creator and creature relationship. In the NT Jesus opens the possibility to the experience of oneness with God. OT is not false. It belongs to the evolution of the human consciousness. In the Biblical tradition Jesus completes this evolutionary process and opens it to everyone.