Oldest religion in the world?

[Falvlun]

Except why have respect for the dead at all except for even remotely religious purposes? Without the concept of a possible hereafter, a dead person is dead, and that's it. Who cares what happens to the corpse?

Because it stinks. And it was your Grandma.

Respect isn't a religious concept, the last I checked.

Or, failing respect, there could still be love, and a wish to see a loved one preserved in one's last sight of her as near as to how she was when living.

 

[melvin abercrombie]

In the beginning there was one church,one religion,one God and one Goddess,the Hebrew people were descendents from Noah and his family.they followed a lot like pagan,wicca and witches,earth honored,the arch-angels, the sons and daughters of our Father/Mother were over the elements,air,east,Raphael, fire,south,Michael, water,west, Gabriel, and earth,north, Auriel. we called upon them for protection and for good crops,food supply.until we decide to go back to this one true church we will be "scattered and confused and we will have problems.

 

[idea]

Even within your belief system, this idea is ridiculous.

Religion could only have begun once there was someone around to worship God.

I believe that we have always been around There is no ultimate beginning.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section93:29)

Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. ...
"create" should not be in the Bible - should be "form, organize" etc... not create...

God is cleaning up a mess He did not make...

 

[Dezzie]

I was thinking the same thing. What if we (all theists) found out that all the faiths and religions started with the first one? How would that effect those who believe that "our way in the Only Way"?
We have no way to prove it, but there is a chance that all faiths started with one single faith, just as Christianity branched off into different denominations.

This is definitely a way I would want to see it myself. Who's religion is the right one? I like the thought that all of our beliefs branched from one specific one many, many years ago. Some of them seem so different though. It's hard to say. Also... where is anyone wrong about their belief? I personally see that we are all worshipping the same God (of course for those who belief in a God)... We are just doing it a different way. As far as Christianity states though... Some say that as long as you believe Jesus died for our sins, you will go to Heaven. If we are all branching off of the same religion, how is this statement true or even false? If someone doesn't believe we have to go through Jesus to get to Heaven, where do we go? It really makes me wonder if there even is a "Hell"... Some reliions believe it, others don't. Who's right and who's going to Hell? That is something I have always wondered.

 

[Dezzie]

And... I really appreciate everyones input as well. It's great to hear the different sides to this!

 

[idea]

Who's right and who's going to Hell? That is something I have always wondered.

God is just, everyone - in this life orin the next - will have the same chance to learn everything. There is a hell, I don't see it as fire and brimstone, I see "outer darkness" as a place for spirits who are not given bodies - or not given any control over matter because they abuse that power - very few will choose this in the end I think.

 

[Falvlun]

I believe that we have always been around There is no ultimate beginning.

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section93:29)

Hebrew Word Studies
The English word "create" is an abstract word and a foriegn concept to the Hebrews. ...
"create" should not be in the Bible - should be "form, organize" etc... not create...

God is cleaning up a mess He did not make...

My apologies. I assumed I knew your beliefs when I obviously didn't.

 

[idea]

My apologies. I assumed I knew your beliefs when I obviously didn't.

Our birth is but a sleep and a forgetting:
The Soul that rises with us, our life's Star,
Hath had elsewhere its setting,
And cometh from afar:
Not in entire forgetfulness,
And not in utter nakedness,
But trailing clouds of glory do we come
From God, who is our home:
Heaven lies about us in our infancy!

- by William Wordsworth (1770-1850) , from Ode: Intimations of Immortality from Recollections of Early Childhood

Many early Christians also believed in a pre-mortal existence... I don't think it is completely LDS theology.

another example:
5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
(Old Testament | Jeremiah1:5)

Eccl. 12:7 the spirit shall return unto God who gave it
return = means we have been there before...

John 9:2 who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind
the apostles believed that we had the ability to sin before we were born...

Rom. 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate
Eph. 1:4 chosen us in him before the foundation of the world
etc. etc.

I mean, how else would you explain the origin of evil We would not have to be changed if He "created" us out of nothing...

 

[Dezzie]

God is just, everyone - in this life orin the next - will have the same chance to learn everything. There is a hell, I don't see it as fire and brimstone, I see "outer darkness" as a place for spirits who are not given bodies - or not given any control over matter because they abuse that power - very few will choose this in the end I think.

I've always thought Hell to be a bit like what you are saying as well. I never thought it was all fire and burning. I believe it is a place we go after death if we commit a wrong... like a murderer or something would go to this place to really think about what things he did wrong. When he/she finally, truly understands what wrong they commited, they go to Heaven or something of it. I just could never see God as being that horrible and mean. I believe Hell to be a dark place, a lonely place... a place where you are alone and without your family. But I think it is a temporary place for a sinful person until they realize what they did wrong.

I really like your thought on how a person isn't given any control because they abused the power. I would agree that not many people would choose that in the end. I appreciate your input.

 

[Riverwolf]

Because it stinks. And it was your Grandma.

Respect isn't a religious concept, the last I checked.

Or, failing respect, there could still be love, and a wish to see a loved one preserved in one's last sight of her as near as to how she was when living.

A concept I don't agree with at all.

Memory should be more than enough.

I fail to see how one could have respect for someone who's dead if they have no more life. In life, respect and love them, but once their dead, their corpse is as any other inanimate object; a source of food for other forms of life. What's more to respect or love of the corpse?

A person is honored more, in my opinion, through the memory of life, not the grandness of death.

 

[idea]

I've always thought Hell to be a bit like what you are saying as well. I never thought it was all fire and burning. I believe it is a place we go after death if we commit a wrong... like a murderer or something would go to this place to really think about what things he did wrong. When he/she finally, truly understands what wrong they commited, they go to Heaven or something of it. I just could never see God as being that horrible and mean. I believe Hell to be a dark place, a lonely place... a place where you are alone and without your family. But I think it is a temporary place for a sinful person until they realize what they did wrong.

I really like your thought on how a person isn't given any control because they abused the power. I would agree that not many people would choose that in the end. I appreciate your input.

sorry, had a phone call...

If you are interested, here are a couple of scriptures:

this life is not the only one to learn things...
25 ...the adead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(New Testament | John5:25)


"Prison" is another name for hell:
Spirits in Prison (see also Damnation; Hell; Spirits, Disembodied)
Isa. 24:22 as prisoners are gathered in the pit
Isa. 49:9 (1 Ne. 21:9) thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth
Isa. 61:1 (D&C 138:42) opening of the prison to them that are bound
Luke 4:18 preach deliverance to the captives
John 5:25 dead shall hear ... the Son
1 Pet. 3:19 preached unto the s. in p.
(Topical Guide | SSpirits in Prison:Entry)

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves.
(Old Testament | Isaiah49:9)

1 ...to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
(Old Testament | Isaiah61:1)

prison is just a temporary place for those who need to learn things, prison of the mind, not of the body, type of thing.

 

[idea]

As for Spirits who follow Satan not being given a body, remember this one and others like it?

9 And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many.
10 And he besought him much that he would not send them away out of the country.
11 Now there was there nigh unto the mountains a great herd of swine feeding.
12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.
13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were achoked in the sea.
(New Testament | Mark5:9 - 13)

So the spirits following Satan don't have bodies, that is why they try to possess people, take over other's bodies, because they do not have their own. Apparently it is pretty bad not to have a body, these devils do everything they can - would rather enter a herd of pigs then be without a body again etc. etc. so not having any matter to call your own must be a pretty miserable state of being... So many seem to see bodies as a bad thing "the flesh is weak" sort of thing, our bodies are wonderful things though, the first little bit of matter we are given charge over. The ability to physically reach out and touch someone can be used for good or bad obviously, simple solution for those who can't handle it, they are just spirits, cannot reach out and touch anyone...

The big deal with the resurrection, we will be given perfect bodies... Just as Jesus was given:
38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do athoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: ahandle me, and see; for a bspirit hath not cflesh and bones, as ye dsee me have.
40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and awondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
(New Testament | Luke24:38 - 43)

The final state of those who are saved, will be one of flesh:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
(Old Testament | Job19:26)

some of my fav descripts
5 Then the eyes of the blind shall be opened, and the ears of the deaf shall be unstopped.
6 Then shall the lame man leap as an hart, and the tongue of the dumb sing...
(Old Testament | Isaiah35:5 - 6)

We will have eyes, and ears, legs, and singing tongues It's going to be pretty cool!!

 

[Dezzie]

sorry, had a phone call...

If you are interested, here are a couple of scriptures:

this life is not the only one to learn things...
25 ...the adead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
(New Testament | John5:25)


"Prison" is another name for hell:
Spirits in Prison (see also Damnation; Hell; Spirits, Disembodied)
Isa. 24:22 as prisoners are gathered in the pit
Isa. 49:9 (1 Ne. 21:9) thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth
Isa. 61:1 (D&C 138:42) opening of the prison to them that are bound
Luke 4:18 preach deliverance to the captives
John 5:25 dead shall hear ... the Son
1 Pet. 3:19 preached unto the s. in p.
(Topical Guide | SSpirits in Prison:Entry)

9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves.
(Old Testament | Isaiah49:9)

1 ...to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;
(Old Testament | Isaiah61:1)

prison is just a temporary place for those who need to learn things, prison of the mind, not of the body, type of thing.

Thank you for those! It really helped clarify some things.

 

[Zardoz]

Isn't this sort of saying "My religion is the oldest because my religion says so."? Using Noah as proof that your religion is the oldest assumes that Noah in fact existed and built an ark, etc.

Well, I did say this was the Abrahamic viewpoint, nu?. If one believes this literally, since Noah's family was the only survivors of the flood then everyone alive is Noachide. (myself, I hold the story to be based on a real world event of less than global scale. No polar bears, for example lol)

Anyhoo, within your religion, why would you point to Noah as being the first indication of religion, when Cain and Abel obviously worshiped a God, and offered sacrifices to him? There were also obviously rules in place for the proper way to worship the God. That sounds an awful lot like religion to me, and it waaaaay predates Noah.

Noah is a bit different as there is an actual covenant established. We don't know the details or motivation of Cain & Abel's acts.

Are the 7 Laws of Noah in the Torah?

'Cause I don't remember seeing them there. (I have heard of them before, but I've yet to find them)

Except for the ones in the Noah story, the rest are derived logially by preceding events. For example, Cain is punished for the murder of Abel so murder makes the list. In modern terms, The 7 laws are reversed-engineered as minimum system requirements for Man.

 

[Darkwater]

Some of the points are now straying from the question of religion to

"which came first,the god or his powers" which is a good question.

Oldest *religion* would be happily labelled *pagan*.....I have pictures from Africa of a place of worship at least 75,000 years old,just I am not so good at uploading pictures.

Near the head of the Limpopo River,maybe the birthplace of *civilisation*(ahem) or else a camp where earliest *human's were enslaved by *aliens*,or whatever.

 

[painted wolf]

Except that religious thought predates even humanity. There is good evidence that Neanderthals had a developed spiritual sense, from ritualized burials to purely symbolic objects and purposeful arrangement of animal bones, they were clearly thinking in ways that could be called religious.
Long before the arrival of modern humans.

wa:do

 

[Nepenthe]

I'm just saying that there is not much new.

Reconstructed religions or neo-pagan beliefs are indeed young and new. No matter the claim of being based off of ancient traditions. Christianity is based off ancient traditions. But so is Judaism.



Such an equivocation renders the term religion and what it actually means in history useless.

Missed this the first time through....
That was kind of my point- without an actual definition of what one means by religion, any ritualized activity could be construed as the genesis of religion.

Most anthropologists I'm aware of would define religious activity as that which encompasses symbolic thought, references to a metaphysical aspect of reality, and the means of passing the religion on through tales. But there's no question that the line between religion and non-religion is ambiguous at best.

 

[arcanum]

Wicca was founded in the 20th century by Gerald Gardner, it's an infant as far as religions go.

this is very true..it's a re constructionist religion.as for the oldest religion on earth still practiced it probably would go to india.though the oldest religion would probably date back to the Sumerians.

 

[Sunstone]

Except that religious thought predates even humanity. There is good evidence that Neanderthals had a developed spiritual sense, from ritualized burials to purely symbolic objects and purposeful arrangement of animal bones, they were clearly thinking in ways that could be called religious.
Long before the arrival of modern humans.

wa:do

So that puts religious thought as far back at least as our common ancestor with Neanderthals.

 

[gnomon]

Missed this the first time through....
That was kind of my point- without an actual definition of what one means by religion, any ritualized activity could be construed as the genesis of religion.

Most anthropologists I'm aware of would define religious activity as that which encompasses symbolic thought, references to a metaphysical aspect of reality, and the means of passing the religion on through tales. But there's no question that the line between religion and non-religion is ambiguous at best.

Gotcha.

I agree.