Omnibenevolence and Eternal Torment

[Kcnorwood]

I got this from a friend who posted it in another fourm I thought it might be a good debate here.

When considering the concept of Hell (Hell being defined, in this situation, as a place of ETERNAL suffering and torment), how can it be possible that God is all-loving?

God is supposedly omnibenevolent; loves anyone and everyone, even if they do not believe in him. So, logically, one would assume that God would not begrudge anyone for anything.

Yet, this all-loving God would supposedly let people (who didn't quite meet up to His standards) undergo everlasting, ghastly torment in Hell. I've heard some people say that it makes God sad to do so, and that He wants them to be saved... but, unfortunately, if they don't believe in Jesus, He will forsake them.

Well, if it made Him sad to condemn people to fiery torture, why would He do it? It's not as if He could be FORCED to... because, along with omnibenevolent, He is supposedly omnipotent, i.e. can do anything and everything without limitation. So we cannot assume that He MUST send people to Hell. If it truly saddened an omnipotent being to see people suffer eternally, we must assume that this being would not condemn people to such a fate.

Also, if God wants people to be saved, and He loves everybody with all of His being, then logically we should assume that He would save them all without exception. According to Christian doctrine, however, this is not the case. But also according to Christian doctrine, God is omnipotent and loves all people.

MY POINT:

It is impossible to logically combine the concepts of omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and Hell (remember, ETERNAL torture) when defining the Christian God.

If God is omnibenevolent, yet lets people burn in Hell, then He CANNOT be omnipotent. Otherwise, He wouldn't let it happen.

If God is omnipotent, and lets people burn in Hell, then He IS NOT omnibenevolent, as this would only be SELECTIVE love... a love for the people who worship Him and/or Jesus. And, in this case, He would demonstrate viciousness towards the people who do not worship Him.

And, if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then He WOULD NOT allow people to suffer for eternity, no matter what they did on Earth.

 

[Gentoo]

I completely agree with you. Everything you said.

 

[mostly harmless]

I got this from a friend who posted it in another fourm I thought it might be a good debate here.

When considering the concept of Hell (Hell being defined, in this situation, as a place of ETERNAL suffering and torment), how can it be possible that God is all-loving?

God is supposedly omnibenevolent; loves anyone and everyone, even if they do not believe in him. So, logically, one would assume that God would not begrudge anyone for anything.

Yet, this all-loving God would supposedly let people (who didn't quite meet up to His standards) undergo everlasting, ghastly torment in Hell. I've heard some people say that it makes God sad to do so, and that He wants them to be saved... but, unfortunately, if they don't believe in Jesus, He will forsake them.

Well, if it made Him sad to condemn people to fiery torture, why would He do it? It's not as if He could be FORCED to... because, along with omnibenevolent, He is supposedly omnipotent, i.e. can do anything and everything without limitation. So we cannot assume that He MUST send people to Hell. If it truly saddened an omnipotent being to see people suffer eternally, we must assume that this being would not condemn people to such a fate.

Also, if God wants people to be saved, and He loves everybody with all of His being, then logically we should assume that He would save them all without exception. According to Christian doctrine, however, this is not the case. But also according to Christian doctrine, God is omnipotent and loves all people.

MY POINT:

It is impossible to logically combine the concepts of omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and Hell (remember, ETERNAL torture) when defining the Christian God.

If God is omnibenevolent, yet lets people burn in Hell, then He CANNOT be omnipotent. Otherwise, He wouldn't let it happen.

If God is omnipotent, and lets people burn in Hell, then He IS NOT omnibenevolent, as this would only be SELECTIVE love... a love for the people who worship Him and/or Jesus. And, in this case, He would demonstrate viciousness towards the people who do not worship Him.

And, if God is omnibenevolent and omnipotent, then He WOULD NOT allow people to suffer for eternity, no matter what they did on Earth.

I agree. Frubals!

 

[Papersock]

I also agree. Not much of a debate, so far

 

[Rough_ER]

Sorry to jump on the band wagon also. Great post, I agree 100%. Frubals.

 

[Katzpur]

MY POINT:

It is impossible to logically combine the concepts of omnipotence, omnibenevolence, and Hell (remember, ETERNAL torture) when defining the Christian God.

Which "Christian God" are you referring to? Certainly not mine. (Since I'm frequently told that I don't really worship the "Christian God," but some kind of a "fake, wannabe, false God" instead, I thought I'd use that accusation to my advantage. )

 

[Super Universe]

God has created no hell for you to suffer in because God has forgiven you for every wrong. Now that does not mean that there is no place like hell in the universe, humans have created many places like it: prison, war... And in the afterlife there is a low place that you will definately not enjoy if you go there.

This low place is not punishment, it is a place where the selfish go because it is where they deserve to go. It is what they have earned because there is no other place in the universe that will accept them.

Those who go to this place will work very hard everyday of their existence for selfish beings who care not for them.

Why does God allow this? God allows what is necessary for His children to learn. If a person cannot learn to mature into a responsible universal being on the earth who wishes to do no harm then this low place is their best last chance to learn it.

Does a father still love his child even when he calls the police to report that his son has done something illegal?

Suffering does not matter, pain is nothing, a soul that matures into a responsible universal being knowing right from wrong and the consequences of action and inaction is invaluable to the universe.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I would point out two corrections, at least from the Baha'i POV:

- First off, hell isn't eternal. Our scriptures state that God, through His Mercy and Bounty, will assist even those in the worst soft of hell eventually to progress and draw near to Him (the definition of Heaven, hell being defined as separation from Him).

- And second, hell is in any case very much a SELF-IMPOSED state: something we do to ourselves via our free will of we so choose! It's thus not God's fault, nor is it anything He wishes for any of us. As with many things, too often we're our own worst enemies!

Just the facts as we see them.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Kcnorwood]

There is no proof that hell is NOT permanent I guess it's no how you see it or more to the point in what you believe.

I know some cathloics who believe in God but not the devil, I guess it more depends on what you were raised with. You don't do bad things because of Satan told you too it's a choice. Just has doing something good is, it's all YOUR choice!

In Isaiah 45:7 it says 7I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I, the LORD, do all these things. Which is well known...

If God has God has forgiven you for every wrong then why create such a place int he first place? I think it's wrong to say he wants to teach you a lesson by sending you to hell....

 

[xexon]

As long as you allow the mind to rule, you will know hell.

It is eternal damnation only as long as you allow it to continue.

You can take as long as you like.


x

 

[Nanda]

For those who don't believe in an eternal hell, that's all well and good. But what about those who do? You can't tell me that you'd be able to learn anything from eternal punishment. What possible difference would such a lesson make? If it's eternal, you're not going anywhere else, so the lesson is wasted. Then again, if you believe in an eternal hell, you're probably not seeing it from a learning standpoint, but a punative one. I think that is the concept of hell most are having a problem with.