• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
'Potence, science and presence' represents three sides of the same epistomological coin: if something is potentially "there" (objectively exists), then it has identity (we know it's there) and presence (it exists in relation to us, its knower). Similarly omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are three inseparable sides of a cosmological model of a "creator god" (one such model) --an immanent and imminent creator for all the creation. The "God" that is omnipotent is the potential objective "thereness" of all things, "awareness" of all things so composed, and relation of each to us.

Comments?
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I think that the three "omni"s are the logical result of monotheism combined with Platonism. There was a need, for some reason, for Christians to deify Jesus, so a great big wrench was thrown into monotheistic theology.

Islam was able to sustain its monotheistic focus because its Prophet stayed with them far longer, and the focus is twofold: God and Mohammed. There is no attempt to deify Mohammed as the Christians did with Jesus.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
'Potence, science and presence' represents three sides of the same epistomological coin: if something is potentially "there" (objectively exists), then it has identity (we know it's there) and presence (it exists in relation to us, its knower). Similarly omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are three inseparable sides of a cosmological model of a "creator god" (one such model) --an immanent and imminent creator for all the creation. The "God" that is omnipotent is the potential objective "thereness" of all things, "awareness" of all things so composed, and relation of each to us.

Comments?


With what you've just mentioned, are you referring to the Theist "God" concept or the Deist "God" concept?
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
With what you've just mentioned, are you referring to the Theist "God" concept or the Deist "God" concept?
Could go with either, and more. I'm putting forth the idea that the "triple-omni" image of "God" stems from an epistomological, rather than an ontological, view. Ontology talks about what is, but epistomology looks at the same from the perspective of what we know. The "triple-omni" traits, to me, reflect a basic epistomological model of our own relationship with the world around us.
 

Aquitaine

Well-Known Member
Could go with either, and more. I'm putting forth the idea that the "triple-omni" image of "God" stems from an epistomological, rather than an ontological, view. Ontology talks about what is, but epistomology looks at the same from the perspective of what we know. The "triple-omni" traits, to me, reflect a basic epistomological model of our own relationship with the world around us.

Right well........ that didn't go through. :shrug:

xD
 

Snowcat

Member
There is a fourth OMNI...OMNIFICIENT=(God) Does all that is done.

It comes from the Urantia Book...although I do not adhere to everything in it.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
'Potence, science and presence' represents three sides of the same epistomological coin: if something is potentially "there" (objectively exists), then it has identity (we know it's there) and presence (it exists in relation to us, its knower). Similarly omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are three inseparable sides of a cosmological model of a "creator god" (one such model) --an immanent and imminent creator for all the creation. The "God" that is omnipotent is the potential objective "thereness" of all things, "awareness" of all things so composed, and relation of each to us.

Comments?
Sure.
How do equate something that is potentially "there " to objectively existing, and knowing that it's there?

Moreover, how do you figure omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are three inseparable sides of a cosmological model of a "creator god"? From where I stand, if anything, this would be a theological model. And as far as being inseparable, this would be entirely dependent on one's particular construction of a god. Omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are no more three inseparable sides of a god than would be suspenders, a beard, and a runny nose of some other god. They're individual characteristics that lack any mutual dependence.


Furthermore, how would god, if speaking of the Christian god, be the "imminent creator for all the creation"?

And, how can omnipotence be "the potential objective "thereness" of all things"? Not understanding what you're saying here.
 

0zyzzyz0

Murphy's Law is the TOE.
'Potence, science and presence' represents three sides of the same epistomological coin: if something is potentially "there" (objectively exists), then it has identity (we know it's there) and presence (it exists in relation to us, its knower). Similarly omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence are three inseparable sides of a cosmological model of a "creator god" (one such model) --an immanent and imminent creator for all the creation. The "God" that is omnipotent is the potential objective "thereness" of all things, "awareness" of all things so composed, and relation of each to us.

Comments?

I think you might have just defined God as absolute existence that is absolutely self aware.

Tricky

Can such an omnieverything ontological being that is all of being be something within its own greater context? If not, can it still be considered omnipotent?

I just started another similar thread before finding out about this one. Interesting parallels - especially with Skwim's questions.

%)
0zy
 

bggbiggie

New Member
A lot of people have previously claimed to have 'debunked' the idea of a God by claiming that a God what is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent (much like the one you have described here) is logically impossible. Could someone who is rather learned on this particular sentiment enlighten me? I do not see how that could be considered a logical impossibility. Thanks in advance.
 
Last edited:

Twiglet04

New Member
Logically, it is impossible to be both omniscient and omnipotent.

Can omnipotent God,
who knows the future,
find the power to change his future mind?
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins
 

bggbiggie

New Member
How exactly is it impossible though? Could you demonstrate it with (preferably) some premises or something similar?

I've found that many attempts at 'debunking' the idea (which are actually questions that are 'set', in their inherent nature and direct phraseology) of a God allow a supposed 'omnipotence' to be 'disproved', while wholly being based around that original (preconceived) concept in the first place (see: bias).

A very common approach is to pose the following question: "Can God create a stone so heavy that even He cannot lift it?"

If ones answer to the question is "yes", they would generally conclude (or sometimes surmise) that this means that either he ceases to be omnipotent in at least 2 ways: 1.) He cannot create the stone to begin with and 2.) he cannot lift the stone what he created.

If ones answer to that question happens to be "no" then it directly implies that he just, in general, lacks the ability to either 1.) lift the stone or 2.) create the stone to begin with

As demonstrated here, both questions are inherently and intrinsically a gateway to 'disproving' any supposed omnipotence that X deity has/possesses. Moreover, notice that the usual answer to the question is NOT made by the deity in question, but rather, by the individuals proposing the question to begin with. As aforementioned, any amount of answers (as far as I know) will ultimately preclude the possibility of any supposed 'omnipotence' (either real or imagined). However, I do not necessarily believe that a supposed 'failure' from a deity to amount to some avowed criteria (in this case, creating and lifting a heavy stone, said stone being "so heavy God cannot lift it") demonstrates a lack of omnipotence, especially when the question, in its very nature, is solely reliant human answer. Others often resort to other (similar) tactics, which are, incidentally, mere variations of the question above (however, they are usually phrased to become a statement, rather than a loaded question). A very recurring and common statement is "IF God loves EVERYONE, he MUST love me, after all, God doesn't want anyone to go to Hell (smirk)." Said remarks are generally used as a backhanded way to attack someone's own argument without having to substantiate their own argument at all.
 
Last edited:

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
A very common approach is to pose the following question: "Can God create a stone so heavy that even He cannot lift it?"

If ones answer to the question is "yes", they would generally conclude (or sometimes surmise) that this means that either he ceases to be omnipotent in at least 2 ways: 1.) He cannot create the stone to begin with and 2.) he cannot lift the stone what he created.

If ones answer to that question happens to be "no" then it directly implies that he just, in general, lacks the ability to either 1.) lift the stone or 2.) create the stone to begin with
The question has a hidden false dichotomy: it neglects possibility. Either things are possible or they are impossible. The impossible cannot be possible. Possible things, by definition, are things capable of happening, things that can be done; logically, the impossible is not something that can be done. To suggest that "god do the impossible" is to suggest that the impossible be possible, hence that the dilemma posed be definitionally unworkable, and therefore incoherent and incomprehensible.
 

Irimiea

New Member
When debating these attributes of god one has to realize that they are the result of a maturity in belief that polished the perception of god throughout the centuries, just as the god from the new testament depicts a totally different deity in comparison with the doubtful god of the old testament, that also is very different from the Greek gods, let's say. they are nothing but attempts to materialize a very demanding concept. but they are just like a cup and coffee, lets say, that come together in order to form a cup of coffee, even dough they may well contradict each other in some way(excuse my humble allegory). the thing that they form is Perfection, and that is the most accurate description of god. The 3 omniS refer to a god that is infinite and eternal and those two concepts are the ones you should question instead of the omnis. Again i say, the important thing is the Perfection that they form, and not their incompatibility. otherwise think of a god that is omnipotent and omniscient, but not omniprezent. Could this god be considered a god compared to the absolute god? ... and so heading in the direction of the greek gods.
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Logically, it is impossible to be both omniscient and omnipotent.

Can omnipotent God,
who knows the future,
find the power to change his future mind?
The God Delusion - Richard Dawkins

God is said to be beyond time, as God created time He is not subject to it. Hence I see it is logical to say omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent. What RDawkins does is assume that time is separate from God, which is illogical.

The way I use the word "God" does not here imply an individual separate "sky daddy". Rather "God" is time and space and all that fills it. "God" is just a word to describe the totality.
:)
 

bggbiggie

New Member
Thank you!

I am addressing you, yes. What about your own personal/specific belief? Would you say God is a sole deity or the other view you've just expressed (ie that "God can be a deity, but a deity....")?
 

Onkara

Well-Known Member
Thank you!

I am addressing you, yes. What about your own personal/specific belief? Would you say God is a sole deity or the other view you've just expressed (ie that "God can be a deity, but a deity....")?

Hello
That is my personal belief because my definition of God is that God is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

The limits we put on God are our own, they are man made limits to help us to understand God and to talk about God to each other. However it would be a contradiction in my logic if I said "God is omnipresent" and that God is limited to a deity because a limitation implies it is not omnipresent.

So my answer is that God can be a deity. God could even be an Avatar, there is no reason that God could not do as God wills, but I must recognise that God cannot be limited.
 

Surya Deva

Well-Known Member
I agree with the general consesus here that the creator god is logically impossible. Here are some reasons

1) If there is a creator god, then there must be some matter god creates from. That something is not god then and therefore god is not omnipresent.

2) If god is omnipotent, then god must be able to do impossible things with that matter. However the impossible cannot be possible and therefore god is not omnipotent

3) If god omniscientist, then god should be able to predict what is going to happen with his creation once he creates it. If god knows that later there is going to be suffering like genocides, holocausts, slavery, then why go ahead and create it, unless god wants this to happen(why?) or is indifferent(might as well be a computer)

4) If god is omniperfect, then god is already complete and there is no need to create anything. Nothing needed to be added and nothing needed to be removed. However, the fact that god creates, means therefore he is not omniperfect.

I personally reject the creator god concept because it is absurd. The concept of god I accept is god as absolute reality that underlies all.
 
Top