Omnipotence vs Free Will

[Revoltingest]

The argument presented misses time.

Nope. I took that into account.

A choice once made is over. One cannot make one choice about the event that occurs and then go back in time and change the choice.

In a thought experiment I can. Even God himself (herself? Itself? Themselves?) is subject to such indignity.

 

[Zadok]

The argument presented misses time.
A choice once made is over. One cannot make one choice about the event that occurs and then go back in time and change the choice.

Being omniscient God will know the outcome of our choice between A and B.
Having made the choice A, we cannot go back and choose B.
We could go back and make a new choice that is similar say A1 and B1, but the circumstances have changed for time has moved forward.

So We may chose A rather than B and then move forward in time and instead chose B1 instead of A1, yet God is still omniscient in his knowledge that we selected A in the first instance and B1 in the next.

Will I have a coffee > becomes I chose to have a coffee. One cannot have that coffee and then go back and chose, No I'm not having a coffee. However I can have that coffee, then moving forward in time when I next ask Will I have a coffee > answer no coffee for me. This is a new choice.

One does not make the same choice twice for time progresses onwards.

What you have not explained is how can it be that you express freely your will by making different choices? Such choices can only be different if they are the results of different will. If your will exist then the choice will, of necessity, be the same each time it is expressed - otherwise that "will" does not really exist and is only an illusion.

Zadok

 

[Peacewise]

Ah well, if you think that you've accounted for time and that accounting still allows a person to make the same choice twice, then we disagree and I'll just let the discussion be.

 

[it's_sam]

I've also asked this question to myself and looked for an answer, I also realized that I was going to do what i had concluded was right for everyone no matter what. So i feel it's not as much as he knows what were going to do before we do it, but we are going to do what we do because that is, infact, who we are. Knowing why you did what you did and for what reasons is what put's you in control of your actions.

 

[Evandr]

I think you have offered some thoughts to be considered. I would like to go a litter deeper into the concept you mentioned concerning what you identify as a “pre-mortal existence”. If we existed as individuals prior to receiving a mortal physical body there is another very distinct possibility to explain the variety of stations for the individuals in this earthly state. That is - that during that pre-mortal existence we had input and choice into our own life experience. That being the case it is possible that we also possessed knowledge as did G-d concerning what happens during our “mortal existence”.

This knowledge concerning the risk of individual choice (free will) of what would come to pass was perhaps the primary concern voiced in the rebellion of Lucifer and his followers.

Zadok

Very good, our ultimate goals in pre-mortality was to gain a physical body and become like our heavenly father and that is what we worked for although some worked harder than others. As you said, many did not like the idea that we could fail so when Lucifer offered a plan wherein no one would have free agency and every one would be forced back into the presence of God one in three sided with him. The problem was that such a plan would usurp the claims of justice and the whole plan would fail. Explaining why is lengthy so I will not go into it hear, suffice it to say that there were those in every level of progress and that is what determined when and where we were to be tested in mortality.

I cannot even begin to comprehend the majesty and glory of anyone who can keep track of all that is happening in a world where so many are being tested in an environment where free agency of the individual is co-mingled with the acts and actions of all those surrounding them both literally and as nations. Only God could accomplish it and only those who prove worthy to have such power and authority will get it. Is it any wonder that preparation takes so long and the trial is so intense and why, even after all that, many are called and few are chosen while the rest are put out to pasture (so to speak). Only those who go with eyes wide open are cast into outer darkness as was Lucifer and those who rebelled with him.

 

[meogi]

How to have knowledge of the future without determining it:

You're in your friend's bedroom and notice his clock. Being the curious type you are, you hold down the alarm button. Instead of showing the current time it will show what time the alarm will go off. Let go of the button and be on your way.

You now have fore-knowledge of when the alarm will ring. You had absolutely nothing to do with setting of the alarm, but you will know when it goes off. The fore-knowledge did not determine when the alarm would sound.

Omniscience + Free Will. (Of course, in a much more complicated manner.)

 

[Revoltingest]

Ah well, if you think that you've accounted for time and that accounting still allows a person to make the same choice twice, then we disagree and I'll just let the discussion be.

Hey, it's a thought experiment. That's the way those things work, ie, it's
hypothetical - no one actually makes the same choice twice in the real world.

 

[Skwim]

I think we are on the same page.
God might be able to know the end of your life...and the results of it.
But He refrains.

Having ability is one thing...using it would be something else.

And you know this fact because . . . . . . ?

God's knowledge (as ours) is passive. He knows a thing because it's true; it's not true because he knows it.

A distinction without a difference.

Do you not say as you please?
Or maybe you posted as someone else twisted your arm.

What's twisting our arms are all the causative events that lead up to a particular action. You say as you do because _____________________. What ever you use to fill in the blank functions as its cause. Could you say any differently? Only if there were a different cause at work. Could that be the case? Only if there was a change somewhere along the chain of cause/effect that lead up to the moment of utterance.

Whether or not someone (God) knows what will or will not happen does not influence what will or won't happen.

But that's not what is being asserted. Things happen as they do because they can not be otherwise.

What you are saying is, if it can be known, then free will must do exist.

Care to rephrase?

Where is the science in that?

There is none. This isn't a scientific statement.

Why should free will not exist if the future can be gleamed?

See the OP. It's already been explained.

Why isn't it possible that people make choices, and someone (God) has the 'power' to see those choices in advance? Seeing or knowing does not take away the power of choice.

But choice is only an illusion created by our inability to discern the relevant causes.

do we really have free will anyway? Is choice an illusion? Do all the sequence of events throughout history pretty much dictate what will happen next?

There ya go!

 

[Willamena]

Nope. I took that into account.

He's right, though --your re-do doesn't work. In making a choice, "knowability" becomes "known".

 

[Revoltingest]

He's right, though --your re-do doesn't work. In making a choice, "knowability" becomes "known".

Sure it works. I posit the possibilities, & find out which are possible & which are impossible.
Knowability is the key, whether a god chooses to know or not. It speaks to the fixed nature of
the future, given the premises.

 

[Daniel09]

I'm going to try to summarize what I've learned from reading the various responses to my original question:

We have free will because even though God knows what will happen, we still make the choice ourselves, in other words God is not forcing us to do it. Now, the thing about this is, God sends people to Hell regardless of knowing exactly what will happen and how people will react to situations that will send them to Hell. This brings to mind the question of why? Why would God create people with the knowledge that they will be punished forever? It's like building a toy with lit dynamite inside it. Sure, he's not blowing the toy up with his own power, but it is his fault because he lit the dynamite. And that brings to mind how anyone could consider God to be a nice guy lol. This can be applied to the clock metaphor too: He knows the time the alarm will go off, but he also has the ability to change the time on the alarm so that a person wakes up refreshed rather than angry. Now, if he doesn't, then this implies that God takes no part in anyone's lives, leaving things up to everyone else like winding a clock and letting it run, just letting the souls poor into either Heaven or Hell.

Now, don't confuse this with my personal beliefs. I understand that with the force of Ma'at, there must always be a natural balance of good and evil in the world (however abstract those nearly non-existent concepts are). The thing is, I see this as completely natural and thus there is no proper reason for there to be punishment in the afterlife for them. The only punishment a soul can endure would be that of an unbalanced soul. It is too "good" or too "evil" and thus cannot continue in the universe without creating further unbalance and simply destroys itself out of chaos.

 

[Skwim]

I'm going to try to summarize what I've learned from reading the various responses to my original question:

We have free will because even though God knows what will happen, we still make the choice ourselves, in other words God is not forcing us to do it. Now, the thing about this is, God sends people to Hell regardless of knowing exactly what will happen and how people will react to situations that will send them to Hell. This brings to mind the question of why? Why would God create people with the knowledge that they will be punished forever? It's like building a toy with lit dynamite inside it. Sure, he's not blowing the toy up with his own power, but it is his fault because he lit the dynamite. And that brings to mind how anyone could consider God to be a nice guy lol.

And it's conclusions like this that make the faithful clap their hands over their ears and sing, "I caaan't hearrrr you!" It's for no small reason that logic is never given a place in religious belief. It's why "Believe" rather than "Think" is the overriding mantra among the flock.

 

[Willamena]

Sure it works. I posit the possibilities, & find out which are possible & which are impossible.
Knowability is the key, whether a god chooses to know or not. It speaks to the fixed nature of
the future, given the premises.

There is no impossible, the way you posit them. You posit the knowability of a person choosing A or B. These options are knowable to everyone -- both you and I, as well as the imagined omniscent being. In chosing A, and then backtracking to make another choice, the knowability of chosing B is not eliminated. It's still a knowable option.

Unless you present the argument as "known" rather than "knowable", it doesn't work.

But it was already knowable to God that you would choose (A).

It was knowable to each of us that you would choose A or B. It still is.

 

[Zadok]

Very good, our ultimate goals in pre-mortality was to gain a physical body and become like our heavenly father and that is what we worked for although some worked harder than others. As you said, many did not like the idea that we could fail so when Lucifer offered a plan wherein no one would have free agency and every one would be forced back into the presence of God one in three sided with him. The problem was that such a plan would usurp the claims of justice and the whole plan would fail. Explaining why is lengthy so I will not go into it hear, suffice it to say that there were those in every level of progress and that is what determined when and where we were to be tested in mortality.

I cannot even begin to comprehend the majesty and glory of anyone who can keep track of all that is happening in a world where so many are being tested in an environment where free agency of the individual is co-mingled with the acts and actions of all those surrounding them both literally and as nations. Only God could accomplish it and only those who prove worthy to have such power and authority will get it. Is it any wonder that preparation takes so long and the trial is so intense and why, even after all that, many are called and few are chosen while the rest are put out to pasture (so to speak). Only those who go with eyes wide open are cast into outer darkness as was Lucifer and those who rebelled with him.

Perhaps you are making this unnecessarily complicated my friend. It has been my personal experience concerning G-d that the more I learn of G-d and Jesus the less complicated they are. I believe them to be simple to understand both in regards to their persons, their purposes and their works. It is our “human” elements that complicate everything attempting to justify our personal vein ambitions, our appetites, our passions, our desires, our wants and our personal “needs”. We even turn enlightenment of religion into a “what’s in it for me?” mentality when the first real step towards enlightenment is a denial of selfishness.

The choice of free will is really the choice of self discipline. Thus it is that the undisciplined will - can never be free but will always result in bondage. Only by disciplining our will can we eventually exercise free will. Again this is not complicated – it is really very simple. When we make it complex we lose control and understanding and become ignorant slaves to circumstance that have no free will. G-d tries to help us in our discipline by suggesting commandments – but for many – they will not consider the efforts and rigor of discipline worthy of being free.

Zadok

 

[Thief]

Sure it works. I posit the possibilities, & find out which are possible & which are impossible.
Knowability is the key, whether a god chooses to know or not. It speaks to the fixed nature of
the future, given the premises.

So...if you raise a collection of life...and turn it loose upon the earth...
You know the results...and this takes away free will of the individual?

 

[Revoltingest]

There is no impossible, the way you posit them. You posit the knowability of a person choosing A or B. These options are knowable to everyone -- both you and I, as well as the imagined omniscent being. In chosing A, and then backtracking to make another choice, the knowability of chosing B is not eliminated. It's still a knowable option.

The consideration of alternatives is not a comparison of real world sequential events. It's a thought experiment about 2 choices, one choice being
no problem (ie, A), but a different choice (ie, B) being impossible. Given my premises, the only choice available is the one which was knowable by
God. This is done in mathematical proofs regularly, ie, excluding a possibility by assuming it & reaching a conclusion which violates the premises.

Unless you present the argument as "known" rather than "knowable", it doesn't work.

"Known" & "knowable" both share the salient characteristic of the cast-in-concrete nature of the choice made. As soon as God created the universe
(really, even before then), the choice of (A) was destined to be made. Whether God chooses to know it or not is irrelevant.


It was knowable to each of us that you would choose A or B. It still is.[/quote]

 

[Madhuri]

And it's conclusions like this that make the faithful clap their hands over their ears and sing, "I caaan't hearrrr you!" It's for no small reason that logic is never given a place in religious belief. It's why "Believe" rather than "Think" is the overriding mantra among the flock.

That is of course a generalisation. There are a great many religious thinkers who are willing to listen to competing ideas and grow from them. They just aren't the majority...

 

[Dunemeister]

A distinction without a difference.

You've just proven you haven't the slightest grasp of the issues you pretend to deal with.

 

[Daniel09]

That is of course a generalisation. There are a great many religious thinkers who are willing to listen to competing ideas and grow from them. They just aren't the majority...

Indeed. I'm not trying to destroy religious beliefs or put them into question in a person's heart. I am simply trying to understand a Christian's understanding of the concept.

 

[Madhuri]

Indeed. I'm not trying to destroy religious beliefs or put them into question in a person's heart. I am simply trying to understand a Christian's understanding of the concept.

Certainly, I'm interested in their specific view as well. Interestingly, even within Christianity there will be differing perspectives. I've been told by numerous Christians that the concept of free will relates particularly to our freedom to choose between good and evil actions rather than control of everything we do and our destinies.

I am still of the opinion that based on the premise of an omniscient God, free will is possible. At least, I do not think that knowing a person's choices is the same as controlling those actions. The person still has/makes the choice of their own volition. I think it depends on how you look at or analyse Time. In other words, that one can know or not know how time will pan out does not change the course of things. It happens anyway. Knowing what happens in no way affects that it will happen.

But I am very interested in the idea of free will. I personally think it is an illusion- God or no God.