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On Evolution & Creation

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Taxonomy does claim humans are apes...
It does not. They use the word "hominids" to group some apes in the same classification, and they include humans, who are very different of the rest, as seen in the post#2137 up. You seem to ignore those differences, but there they are as FACTS.

Anyway, some people need to educate themselves to realize what a "conventional classification" is.

A National Geographic article says:

Currently, up to 14 species have been identified belonging to the genus Homo, a number that depends on the interpretation of researchers, since the documentation of a new species is based on the analysis of unearthed fossils or fossils already discovered, which new technologies allow to be analyzed in a new, more precise and less invasive way. If the characteristics of the fossils studied do not correspond to a known species in the evolutionary tree of hominids, then a new species is created.
Since classifications are human conventions based on certain criteria, when those criteria are not present the classification lose meaning.
Truth is stable. What confidence can be given by a supposedly "scientific" system that is based on criteria that change over time?

It is evident that evolutionism is based on faith, and as @cladking said in one of his posts, blind believers of scientism consider some of its guides as if they were priests with whom they have to agree even though what they say is so changeable. Its believers are like waves carried by the wind, going everywhere they are driven to.

Like @cladking said: How is anyone supposed to communicate with you unless they aren't agreeing with all of your beliefs?
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
It is evident that evolutionism is based on faith, and as @cladking said in one of his posts, blind believers of scientism consider some of its guides as if they were priests with whom they have to agree even though what they say is so changeable. Its believers are like waves carried by the wind, going everywhere they are driven to.

Like @cladking said: How is anyone supposed to communicate with you unless they aren't agreeing with all of your beliefs?

In recent years the ToE has been changing away from gradual change caused by survival of the fittest. They are STILL wrong but their adherents might not ever even update their models to the new wrong beliefs.

Science is supposed to be a work in progress but most people don't seem to understand this and literally believe scientific metaphysics are magical!!!

The irony is virtually palpable.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
I wonder how a subjective, speculative, and tentative classification system can logically clarify the phylogenetic connections among various species.

Additionally, if this system relies on assumed phylogenetic links without supporting evidence, how can this circular reasoning between classification and phylogenetic relationships be deemed scientific or objective?

The recurring issue is the lack of evidence, the missing facts... Ironically, some seem unaware of what "evidence" truly signifies, thinking that shifting the conversation to "show me God" lends credibility to their doctrine.

Is it really evolutionism science? No, it's not.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It does not. They use the word "hominids" to group some apes in the same classification, and they include humans, who are very different of the rest, as seen in the post#2137 up. You seem to ignore those differences, but there they are as FACTS.

Anyway, some people need to educate themselves to realize what a "conventional classification" is.

A National Geographic article says:


Since classifications are human conventions based on certain criteria, when those criteria are not present the classification lose meaning.
Truth is stable. What confidence can be given by a supposedly "scientific" system that is based on criteria that change over time?

It is evident that evolutionism is based on faith, and as @cladking said in one of his posts, blind believers of scientism consider some of its guides as if they were priests with whom they have to agree even though what they say is so changeable. Its believers are like waves carried by the wind, going everywhere they are driven to.

Like @cladking said: How is anyone supposed to communicate with you unless they aren't agreeing with all of your beliefs?
All biology agrees that humans are apes. Of course there are differences between humans and chimps, and between chimps and gorillas, or orangs. We're different species of apes, but all closely related enough to be called apes.
If you want a diagram of relationships between apes and other hominids or primates, just google some cladograms.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
All biology agrees that humans are apes. ...
False.

Modern apes have nothing to do with modern humans on any evolutionist "educated" mind.

No one knows what are those common ancestors between humans and apes. They just invented that, based on how they look alike and how much DNA seems to be shared.

Do you know that bananas share 60% DNA with humans, don't you? If I thought like an evolutionist I would believe that this is why my nephew has a banana face. :facepalm:
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I wonder how a subjective, speculative, and tentative classification system can logically clarify the phylogenetic connections among various species.

Additionally, if this system relies on assumed phylogenetic links without supporting evidence, how can this circular reasoning between classification and phylogenetic relationships be deemed scientific or objective?

The recurring issue is the lack of evidence, the missing facts... Ironically, some seem unaware of what "evidence" truly signifies, thinking that shifting the conversation to "show me God" lends credibility to their doctrine.

Is it really evolutionism science? No, it's not.
You really should familiarize yourself with a subject before you involve yourself in discussions about it. Biologists aren't just speculating about taxonomy. They follow the evidence you seem unaware of.
 

Eli G

Well-Known Member
Taxonomy is not even consider a real "Science" like before, but a tool to help some scientists, like a methodological tool. Tools are just that.

Are librarians scientists?

To use your own words: You really should familiarize yourself with a subject before you involve yourself in discussions about it.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
False.

Modern apes have nothing to do with modern humans on any evolutionist "educated" mind.

No one knows what are those common ancestors between humans and apes. They just invented that, based on how they look alike and how much DNA seems to be shared.

Do you know that bananas share 60% DNA with humans, don't you? If I thought like an evolutionist I would believe that this is why my nephew has a banana face. :facepalm:
You have no idea what you're talking about, Eli, and you know nothing about what evidence the taxonomy's based on.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It is evident that evolutionism is based on faith
That's incorrect, but let's stipulate to it: the theory of evolution has no empirical support, its claims are all false or unfalsifiable, and it can only be believed by faith.

Now it's on an equal footing with your beliefs, not vanquished or replaced. Go ahead and pick either one and believe it. There's no basis for choosing either when decisions are made like that.

I guess you don't see a problem with trying to undermine the science by describing it in the terms that describe your own beliefs. Although the following discusses describing atheism in religious terms, it applies here as well:

"I always flinch in embarrassment for the believer who trots out, 'Atheism is just another kind of faith,' because it's a tacit admission that taking claims on faith is a silly thing to do. When you've succumbed to arguing that the opposition is just as misguided as you are, it's time to take a step back and rethink your attitudes." - Amanda Marcotte
I wonder how a subjective, speculative, and tentative classification system can logically clarify the phylogenetic connections among various species.
I'm afraid you'll need to keep on wondering if you prefer to not get an education in the area. I hope you know that taxonomy is not based only in comparative anatomy. If you go and get that education, you can learn how comparing genomes helps establish relationships and the time of evolutionary bifurcations. If university and university textbooks aren't accessible or comprehensible to you, try an Internet course from a reputable teaching source with no religious agenda. Here are two:

80+ Taxonomy Online Courses for 2024 | Explore Free Courses & Certifications | Class Central
https://www.udemy.com/course/biology-biological-classification/?

Or, if you only want a few sentences of overview for orientation absent much actual education, try AI. asked AI, "How is genetics used in taxonomy?" Here is part of the answer:

1. **Molecular Phylogenetics**: This method uses genetic data to construct evolutionary trees (phylogenies) that depict the relationships between different species. By comparing sequences from specific genes or whole genomes, scientists can infer how closely related different organisms are. For example, studies using mitochondrial DNA have helped clarify relationships among various bird species, leading to revisions in their taxonomic classification.
2. **DNA Barcoding**: This technique involves sequencing a short, standardized region of the genome (often from mitochondrial DNA) to identify and classify species. DNA barcoding has been particularly useful in identifying cryptic species—organisms that appear morphologically similar but are genetically distinct. For instance, DNA barcoding has revealed hidden diversity among butterfly species that were previously thought to be a single species.
if this system relies on assumed phylogenetic links without supporting evidence
It doesn't.
The recurring issue is the lack of evidence, the missing facts
Missing for you, not the scientifically literate.
thinking that shifting the conversation to "show me God" lends credibility to their doctrine.
The scientific community doesn't need to address the god issue at all. In contrast to the creationist, who cannot offer any support at all for his beliefs and so feels forced to attack the science, the scientific argument is in support of its claims.

Now THAT's shifting the conversation. The creationist depends on it because there is nothing that he can say to defend creationism directly. The empiricist doesn't need to address gods at all to support the science.

But yeah, if you want to communicate with an empiricist and invoke the existence of a god as fact and expect him to take it seriously, you'll need to present compelling evidence in support of your beliefs, which you can't do.

Here's a useful observation: False and unfalsifiable claims can NEVER be successfully supported with evidence and valid reasoning, and correct ideas can never be falsified. The creationist cannot defend his own beliefs nor successfully rebut the science. Unless that changes, that makes the science correct and the mythology false.
Modern apes have nothing to do with modern humans on any evolutionist "educated" mind.
Once again, your own limitations reflect only on you and the anti-intellectual tendencies of your belief system - not what others have learned. Other people can understand what you have no interest in learning.
No one knows what are those common ancestors between humans and apes
Sure we do. Human and nonhuman apes share a common ancestral ape that would be more monkeylike than modern apes, and the last common ancestor shared by humans and chimps would be more chimplike than man. The were bipedal omnivores who swung through branches in jungles and knuckle-walked when on the land.

Do you know what sent man off in a unique direction in ape evolution? It was the loss of those trees. The ancestors of modern gorillas and chimps lived in those trees as their modern non-human descendants still do (they are arboreal), but our ancestors were the ones whose jungles became savanna forcing them to become bipedal, terrestrial, relatively hairless omnivores and cooperative hunters with binocular vision and free, articulate hands to wield tools. Somehow, this conferred language on these terrestrial ape hunters

I left the orangutans out because they're Asian, and what I described occurred in Africa.
Do you know that bananas share 60% DNA with humans, don't you? If I thought like an evolutionist I would believe that this is why my nephew has a banana face.
You think like a creationist. If you thought like a scientist, you'd understand that bananas and humans like all life have a common ancestor and are made of mostly the same ingredients that operate mostly the same way reproducing DNA which is transcribed then translated on cytoplasmic ribosomes to generate the proteins that regulate metabolism. Because of that commonality, we have about 30% of our genes in common with a yeast cell, 60% with a banana, and over 90% with monkeys.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
No one knows what are those common ancestors between humans and apes. They just invented that, based on how they look alike and how much DNA seems to be shared.

Absolutely false as there have been numerous finds with what hypothetically could be prototypes. You say things as facts and yet you provide no proof or substance whatsoever.

BTW, I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that taught as you believe but left that as I studied more. If a denomination or religion cannot tell the truth that evolution is both real and logical, what else are they going to teach falsehoods about? Think about that.
 
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cladking

Well-Known Member
About a month ago, I put out a request to the non-"evolutionists" regarding what should be taught in high school Biology as a replacement for evolution.

No response.

Given the resistance to evolutionary theory here from some, I'll put out the request again.

I'm genuinely interested as to what you think should be taught.

@cladking @YoursTrue @URAVIP2ME @leroy @Eli G

I believe all science should be taught from a metaphysical perspective. As this relates to biology I believe only what is known should be taught and this means things like genetics and the nature of cells and living things. Taxonomies are inevitable but should not be emphasized but rather the characteristics used to differentiate them. Opinions about change in species are certainly relevant but should be taught as opinion. This isn't to say that religious opinions should or should not but Darwin is certainly as relevant to science education as every single one of his assumptions. I do believe that where religious opinion is based on science they should at least be mentioned in passing. No child will be scarred by being told some people believe God started the ball rolling or invented consciousness.

Kids now days are just inundated with stuff to memorize but are not expected to think for themselves. They are injected with streams of indoctrination and endless opinion presented as "settled science" despite the fact everything we believe has always been stood on its head with each new generation and despite the fact much of it is not based in experiment at all but rather in statistics and what s obvious.

Kids who learn metaphysics at least can think for themselves whether they always choose to or not. Sometimes it's easier to just go with professional opinion anyway rather than diagnose yourself or make your own moon shot.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
About a month ago, I put out a request to the non-"evolutionists" regarding what should be taught in high school Biology as a replacement for evolution.

No response.

Given the resistance to evolutionary theory here from some, I'll put out the request again.

I'm genuinely interested as to what you think should be taught.

@cladking @YoursTrue @URAVIP2ME @leroy @Eli G
Good question. Before I attempt to offer my take on it, if possible, before I do, I'd like to know what you think biology consists of.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You clearly don't understand the basic mechanisms we're talking about. There are certain features that would give organisms a survival or reproductive advantage within whatever environment they find themselves. They need not be pre-planned, they're just accidents of birth. Look at a litter of puppies. Are they all identical? One might have a thicker coat, or longer legs, or better eyesight, or greater strength. Any of these could confer a survival, and hence, a reproductive advantage -- or disadvantage -- within a particular environment. The features that chance to confer a reproductive and survival advantage will spread through the population, as the advantaged individuals outbreed the disadvantaged.

So where does the design and decision-making come into this? Honestly, this is basic stuff you should have learned in middle school or before.
Language is language and natural functions do not depend upon language to operate.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
That was your query, "humans or apes"? It's not even a sentence, and it presumes that human are not apes.

I went to my preferred AI site and entered your three-word phrase and got the following (and more):

#### Evolutionary Background Humans (Homo sapiens) and modern apes share a common ancestor that lived approximately 5 to 7 million years ago. Through the process of evolution, distinct lineages emerged: humans developed traits such as bipedalism, larger brain size, and complex language skills. In contrast, apes have evolved their own unique adaptations suited to their environments. For instance, chimpanzees are known for their tool use and social structures.

They also formulated their answer as if humans and apes might be separate categories as my "query" implied. That's a bit disappointing, but irrelevant.

Then I asked the same AI site, "Are human beings apes?" and got the following (and more):

**Comprehensive Answer:**
Yes, human beings are classified as apes. More specifically, humans are part of the superfamily Hominoidea, which encompasses all apes—both lesser apes (like gibbons) and great apes (like orangutans, gorillas, chimpanzees, and humans).


Humans have begun separating from the other great apes, and a time will come - some may say it already has - when humans are considered sufficiently different from the other great apes that the non-human great apes will be considered a paraphyletic group in the clade that begins with the last common ape ancestor. That's a subjective call, but we never stop sharing common ancestors.

I think that that ship has sailed for many RF creationists, many of whom have been "idiotized" by their churches, and they seem to like to show the scientifically literate to what extent here on RF.

Their beliefs are based in scripture written by people who didn't know where the rain came from or where the sun went to at night, people who declared by fiat that man was not related to the beasts and whose descendants are offended by science contradicting them because they have been convinced that man was created by their god as a distinct "kind," a primitive concept the educated world has left behind.

It isn't important that you ever understand or agree with and join the scientifically literate. You've chosen mythology and superstition instead and to tell the world about it, and you've invested to much in it to ever reconsider. Assuming that you have reached the second half of your life, there is no longer any way for you to tunnel out from your faith-based confirmation bias

I did it, but I was less than half my present age, and it was difficult then. Fortunately, there was still a grain of cognitive dissonance and skepticism buried under all of that religious indoctrination, so like a bird with an egg tooth burrowing out of its egg, I was able to break free:

View attachment 100461

Personally, I appreciate that people like you post what you do because I like writing response like this one. And notice that I took my cue form you on just how respectful to creationists I should be when composing that reply. You opened the door to being written to condescendingly when you used the word idiotize.
Of course likely AI and most scientists would agree that humans are apes, just as they might agree that humans are fish.
 

Hooded_Crow

Taking flight
I believe all science should be taught from a metaphysical perspective. As this relates to biology I believe only what is known should be taught and this means things like genetics and the nature of cells and living things. Taxonomies are inevitable but should not be emphasized but rather the characteristics used to differentiate them. Opinions about change in species are certainly relevant but should be taught as opinion.
Thanks for your response.
I agree that what is known should be taught. The way species evolve isn't an opinion, though - it's an evidenced fact. A change in allele frequency in a population / species over time. I know we will differ on this, but it's the best explanation we currently have.
This isn't to say that religious opinions should or should not but Darwin is certainly as relevant to science education as every single one of his assumptions. I do believe that where religious opinion is based on science they should at least be mentioned in passing. No child will be scarred by being told some people believe God started the ball rolling or invented consciousness.
This should be left to religious education classes - not a Biology class. There are so many different religious beliefs and views about 'creation' that mentioning them all in passing would be pointless. Science teachers should stick to the facts as we currently have them.
Kids now days are just inundated with stuff to memorize but are not expected to think for themselves.
Depends on the teacher. Not all teachers adopt a purely rote learning approach.
They are injected with streams of indoctrination and endless opinion presented as "settled science" despite the fact everything we believe has always been stood on its head with each new generation and despite the fact much of it is not based in experiment at all but rather in statistics and what s obvious.
Not everything we 'believe' has been stood on its head.

You raise some interesting points. However, my question was what would you (and others) specifically like to see taught to replace the study of evolution?

Here is the section outlining what is to be covered regarding Evolution from the Scottish Higher Biology course:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
7 Evolution
(a) Evolution — the changes in organisms over generations as a result of genomic variations.
(b) Selection
Natural selection is the non-random increase in frequency of DNA sequences that increase survival and the non-random reduction in the frequency of deleterious sequences.
The changes in phenotype frequency as a result of stabilising, directional and disruptive selection.
Natural selection is more rapid in prokaryotes. Prokaryotes can exchange genetic material horizontally, resulting in faster evolutionary change than in organisms that only use vertical transfer.
(c) Speciation
Speciation is the generation of new biological species by evolution as a result of isolation, mutation and selection.
The importance of isolation barriers in preventing gene flow between sub-populations during speciation.
Geographical barriers lead to allopatric speciation and behavioural or ecological barriers lead to sympatric speciation.

8 Genomic sequencing
(a) In genomic sequencing the sequence of nucleotide bases can be determined for individual genes and entire genomes.
Comparison of genomes from different species.
Comparison of genomes reveals that many genes are highly conserved across different organisms.
(b) Evidence from phylogenetics and molecular clocks to determine the main sequence of events in evolution. The sequence of events can be determined using sequence data and fossil evidence.
Comparison of sequences provides evidence of the three domains of life — bacteria, archaea and eukaryotes.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What would you replace this with? What is the alternative explanation for the biodiversity we see on Earth? And how would that explanation fit into a Biology curriculum?
 
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