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On Evolution & Creation

icant

Member
Sorry, but that is quite wrong. Evolution is not abiogenesis.
No abiogenesis = No evolution.
That is hard to tell one way or another, but the research does suggest that abiogenesis may very well have happened.

Personally, I fully expect that it did.

Evolution, on the other hand, is extremely well demonstrated and can't really be doubted rationally.
Then get to work and do the experiment that can produce life from non-life.
BTW you can believe anything you desire to believe but that does not make it true.
Yeah. Darwin is often accused of being somehow opposed to Christianity or to theism, and that is a very undeserved charge.
I read what I said in the original book Darwin wrote says I am not accusing Darwin of anything.

Enjoy,
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
No abiogenesis = No evolution.

No, @icant. That is just not true. Not in this world, not in the reality of facts.

Then get to work and do the experiment that can produce life from non-life.
BTW you can believe anything you desire to believe but that does not make it true.

I read what I said in the original book Darwin wrote says I am not accusing Darwin of anything.

Enjoy,

No. You are just gravely misrepresenting things and making statements divorced from reality.
 

firedragon

Veteran Member
Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.
The problem is, there are some who believe the whole universe was created and has come so far in just 6,000 years. Even if you don't adhere to Darwinian evolution, it's not compatible.

Yet of course, other types of creationist interpretations are absolutely not contradicted by evolution.
 

Argentbear

Well-Known Member
So since you want to play a semantics game I will rephrase.

Did the experiments produce LIFE?
Define life


If your answer is no then tell me what the experiments were looking to achieve, by performing them?
The primary goal of the Miller-Urey experiment was to test the hypothesis that organic molecules, the building blocks of life, could be formed from inorganic compounds under conditions thought to exist on early Earth, essentially demonstrating the possibility of abiogenesis, the origin of life from non-living matter.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Nope. You are categorically confused.

Both about what biological evolution is (it does not happen "upward" nor "in reverse") and about how abiogenesis factors in there (it doesn't really).

Evolution is a demonstrable and well-documented fact. Abiogenesis is so far speculative (although increasingly supported by evidence).

And what is that about "batting zero"? Are you confused about what science is as well? It would appear so.
obviously we're living on two sides of the same earth. I think. And of course, that's probably figurative language since I don't know if the earth can be said to have sides. Yeah well anyway -- Because what icant said makes sense. And what you say -- (does not). Plus -- abiogenesis is not supported increasingly by "evidence. " Abiogenesis | Definition & Theory You might want to read that. Nothing increasing about it. Hypotheses maybe that great minds can think about I suppose. Nothing substantial with evidence.
 

icant

Member
Nope. You are categorically confused.

Both about what biological evolution is (it does not happen "upward" nor "in reverse") and about how abiogenesis factors in there (it doesn't really).

Evolution is a demonstrable and well-documented fact. Abiogenesis is so far speculative (although increasingly supported by evidence).

And what is that about "batting zero"? Are you confused about what science is as well? It would appear so.

I may be confused about what you believe. But I am not confused about what I believe.
Evolution happens to living things. I believe that.

If the first lifeform on earth never began to exist there would be no evolution at all. I believe that.
On the other hand if by chance a couple of somethings bumped together and produce a living organism are you telling me that would not be evolution. I believe that would be evolution.

And yes science and scientist are batting zero when it comes to producing life with all the experiment's that have been tried.
In fact I haven't heard of anyone trying to produce life from non-life in a long time. It seems everyone has come to the conclusion that you have and will just assume life 'just is' as that is what is assumed. I believe that.

So, no I don't believe non-life ever produced any life of any kind. I believe that.

Nope I am not confused about what I believe.

Enjoy,
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I may be confused about what you believe. But I am not confused about what I believe.
Evolution happens to living things. I believe that.

Okay, that is right.
If the first lifeform on earth never began to exist there would be no evolution at all. I believe that.

And that is right. But we all agree on abiogenesis. We only disagree on form.
On the other hand if by chance a couple of somethings bumped together and produce a living organism are you telling me that would not be evolution. I believe that would be evolution.

No, sorry that is not what is proposed in abiogenesis. Your description is inaccurate which means that your argument fails.
And yes science and scientist are batting zero when it comes to producing life with all the experiment's that have been tried.

No, that is another strawman argument. That was never the goal in almost all experiments. Once again, you do not understand abiogenesis research.
In fact I haven't heard of anyone trying to produce life from non-life in a long time. It seems everyone has come to the conclusion that you have and will just assume life 'just is' as that is what is assumed. I believe that.

That is because they do not try to do that. It would probably be impossible because of the time factor. This is where you confirm that you do not understand the scientific work in abiogenesis.
So, no I don't believe non-life ever produced any life of any kind. I believe that.

Well that is a silly belief because every Christian that I know of disagrees with that.
Nope I am not confused about what I believe.

Yes you are.
Oh we are. Thank you do much.


Here is a hint. If you want a deeper explanation then focus your arguments. If all that you can do is to post a bunch of nonsense you will only get very short refutations.
 

icant

Member

No, @icant. That is just not true. Not in this world, not in the reality of facts.
Are you saying you can have evolution without Life beginning to exist?
No. You are just gravely misrepresenting things and making statements divorced from reality.
No you will not.
or No you can not.
Everybody else that tried failed to produce life.

So, reality is that life can not be produced from non-life.
That is a fact.

Enjoy,
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Organic came from inorganic. Deal with it
I'm not contesting it. Organic was produced by introducing the components enabling the inorganic substances to produce organic substance. I don't believe and I don't believe scientists think--that organic matter just popped up without any connection outside of itself.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I'm not contesting it. Organic was produced by introducing the components enabling the inorganic substances to produce organic substance. I don't believe and I don't believe scientists think--that organic matter just popped up without any connection outside of itself.
You are not even using the term "organic" properly. Organic chemistry is just carbon based chemistry. That is what an organic chemist works with. There is no need for life to make organic chemicals. As to the building blocks of life they form on their own all over the place. Miller Urey were the first to show that they did not need life but since then there have been multiple sources found for them. They even form in space and no one is arguing that there is life in space.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
The primary goal of the Miller-Urey experiment was to test the hypothesis that organic molecules, the building blocks of life, could be formed from inorganic compounds under conditions thought to exist on early Earth, essentially demonstrating the possibility of abiogenesis, the origin of life from non-living matter.
According to what I read, the Miller-Urey experiment showed that organic molecules (in this case amino acids) could be created from inorganic materials by what they considered as natural environmental conditions as they thought them to be, such as acidic solution, heat and electrical discharge (lightning), without the mediation of enzymes. (https://www.americanscientist.org/a...ic molecules,without the mediation of enzymes.)
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
I am not confused at all. I am a farm boy and we caused evolution to take place by selective breeding.
Although deliberate breeding is similar to evolution in many ways, they are not the same thing. In breeding, a conscious being decides what qualities to shoot for. Evolution, OTOH, is a completely natural process, where it is the environment that drives the selection process.
 

IndigoChild5559

Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
Define life
Something that reproduces, either by copying itself, or passing down its genes sexually.

An amino acid may be organic, but it is not life. Abiogenesis is not the creation of organic from non-organic. It is the creation of life from non-life. And no human has ever done this. So far, it is a very interesting hypothesis.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
So since you want to play a semantics game I will rephrase.

Did the experiments produce LIFE?

If your answer is no then tell me what the experiments were looking to achieve, by performing them?

The experiments did fail to produce life PERIOD. That means they got zero results of forming life.

Enjoy,
The experiment produced amino acids. The building blocks of life. Complex molecules of the kind that your ilk likes to brand as "too complex" to form naturally and which "had to be designed".
 
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