On Evolution & Creation

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe I am asking a legitimate question about whether viruses have been said by scientists to mutate to something other than viruses.

After 3 years of repeating the same point about "x remaining x", you should know better by now.

Anyhow... Why should anyone bother answering your questions if you don't bother answering ours?

On Evolution & Creation

No. There was not a time when the universe did not exist and a later time when the universe began to exist. You mustn't think of the universe as having a beginning in time. Time itself, or, rather space-time, is as much an integral part of the universe as mass-energy, so the universe has existed...

www.religiousforums.com

 

[icant]

So the biblical account of it coming from dirt is wrong. Good to know.

Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;..."
That does not say they came from dirt. It says they were formed out of the ground, and just like the form of the man in Genesis 2:7 had to be given life so did the all of the animals that were formed from the ground. All life belongs to God, and He can remove it at anytime He chooses.

So no, the Biblical account of the work done on the forms of the animals and fowl and every other living creature had to have life supplied as the forms had no life of their own. They were just like a statues.

Enjoy,

 

[icant]

If you are purposefully conflating the measurement of a phenomena with the phenomena itself then you will never get your "satisfactory answer" which I am beginning to beleive is your goal.

All I am doing is pointing out that the Egyptians and the Sumerians invented time as a way of measuring duration in existence. They did that using base 12 to account for 12 hours of light followed by 12 hours of darkness. Theirs was not perfect so along come the Swiss and we have all kinds of tools to measure the duration between events. We use stop watches, to measure the duration it takes for a horse to run a mile, a man/woman to run 100 yards, the duration of an airplane trip from the Cayman Islands to New York City. Those are function of time in the universe I live in.

Now in space/time what is the function of time?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Enjoy,

 

[icant]

After 3 years of repeating the same point about "x remaining x", you should know better by now.

Anyhow... Why should anyone bother answering your questions if you don't bother answering ours?

On Evolution & Creation

No. There was not a time when the universe did not exist and a later time when the universe began to exist. You mustn't think of the universe as having a beginning in time. Time itself, or, rather space-time, is as much an integral part of the universe as mass-energy, so the universe has existed...

www.religiousforums.com

So you believe the universe is all that exists and time is a dimension of it. Therefore you conclude that since time is a part of the universe there is no outside of the universe.

That being the case you will never figure out where the universe came from, until you run out of time as the duration between your birth and death will have expired.

Enjoy,

 

[metis]

But...viruses remain viruses, don't they?

Yes, but you're missing the point, which is that life forms mutate that cause variations within the gene pools.

 

[metis]

I disagree. They don't grow or reproduce on their own. They don't eat; or grow. They have no metabolism.
If viruses are alive, so is a line of computer code with instructions to: Print this code.

Yes, there are some differences which is why we put them into a different category of life forms:
Scientific opinions differ on whether viruses are a form of life or organic structures that interact with living organisms.[11] They have been described as "organisms at the edge of life",[10] since they resemble organisms in that they possess genes, evolve by natural selection,[33] and reproduce by creating multiple copies of themselves through self-assembly. Although they have genes, they do not have a cellular structure, which is often seen as the basic unit of life. Viruses do not have their own metabolism and require a host cell to make new products. They therefore cannot naturally reproduce outside a host cell[34]—although some bacteria such as rickettsia and chlamydia are considered living organisms despite the same limitation.[35][36] Accepted forms of life use cell division to reproduce, whereas viruses spontaneously assemble within cells. They differ from autonomous growth of crystals as they inherit genetic mutations while being subject to natural selection. Virus self-assembly within host cells has implications for the study of the origin of life, as it lends further credence to the hypothesis that life could have started as self-assembling organic molecules.[2] The virocell model first proposed by Patrick Forterre considers the infected cell to be the "living form" of viruses and that virus particles (virions) are analogous to spores.[37] Although the living versus non-living debate continues, the virocell model has gained some acceptance.[38]... Virus - Wikipedia

 

[YoursTrue]

Yes, but you're missing the point, which is that life forms mutate that cause variations within the gene pools.

Thanks for that. I understand that life forms mutate. I am pretty sure they cause variations within the gene pools. But -- while the philosophy may be there in reference to the theory of evolution, I do not see the real evidence that fish became apes in the long run. Tiktaalik doesn't do it as far as I am concerned. Be that as it may, however, thank you for your response which was respectful, and that is where I close right now.
P.S. When I say that I believe lifeforms mutate, I am talking about things like dogs interbreeding, and humans interbreeding and producing populations of some with characteristically long or short limbs within the general population, sometimes tribal characteristics.

 

[YoursTrue]

So you believe the universe is all that exists and time is a dimension of it. Therefore you conclude that since time is a part of the universe there is no outside of the universe.

That being the case you will never figure out where the universe came from, until you run out of time as the duration between your birth and death will have expired.

Enjoy,

Yah. Psalm 90 has some very good points about this.

starting v. 3
"You return man to dust,
saying, “Return, O sons of mortals.”
4For in Your sight a thousand years
are but a day that passes,a
or a watch of the night.
5You whisk them away in their sleep;
they are like the new grass of the morning—
6in the morning it springs up new,
but by evening it fades and withers.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why the emphasis on just viruses? Mutation happens in all genetic entities.


Is this a trolling question? I'm going to assume it is. I feel like I would be insulting your intelligence to assume otherwise.

BTW, when are you going to answer my questions?

On Evolution & Creation

No. There was not a time when the universe did not exist and a later time when the universe began to exist. You mustn't think of the universe as having a beginning in time. Time itself, or, rather space-time, is as much an integral part of the universe as mass-energy, so the universe has existed...

www.religiousforums.com

If you would like me to answer, could you please repeat your questions. I will do my best. Sorry if I don't remember what your questions were, but if you are going to be abusive please realize I may opt out from any response. Thanks.

 

[wellwisher]

One of the paradoxes of evolution is the evolution of proofreader enzymes, in light of the theory of mutations and selected evolution? The proof readers enzymes correct any mutations that result during DNA duplication. Natural selection, by evolving proofreader enzymes was trying to get rid of the randomness within DNA replication, or else why evolve proofreader enzymes designed to fix these errors? The proof reader can see the improper base pairs by their energy signal; higher potential than proper base pairing.

The work around is the proofreader enzymes are only active when the DNA is duplicated, so they will still miss environmental changes on the DNA between DNA duplication cycles, such as by viral insertions or other environmental changes. This suggests a more real time connection to the environment fueling the selected change.

In terms of irreducible complexity, modern humans cells will not function without the organelles called the mitochondria. However, the mitochondria are able to function by themselves.

Irreducible complexity (IC) is the argument that certain biological systems with multiple interacting parts would not function if one of the parts were removed, so supposedly could not have evolved by successive small modifications from earlier less complex systems through natural selection, which would need all intermediate precursor systems to have been fully functional.[1]

Right now the theory for mitochondrial in modern cells is two existing things merge, but now only the mitochondria are self sufficient if separated. The question is how did the majority of the modern cell form, before the mitochondria entered, and why is it now no longer self sufficient? And what is the proof? Or did the Mitochondria act as a hub, allowing the rest of the modern cell to form as an extension of itself? The irreducible complexity arguments infers the last theory. It can be applied to theoretical biology.

In terms of humans, only the female passes the mitochondria forward; eggs. The male provides the other half of the DNA. Sperm DNA get the mitochondria support, through it own insertion into the nucleus. The mitochondria energy output is key to the cell cycle. This suggests the main DNA was not very functional until it had the extra energy supply via the Mitochondria. Virus do a similar but smaller dance than sperm cells. Virus are irreducibly complex but can get beyond that by piggy backing on a viable host, adding its own DNA to the host.

 

[Valjean]

I don't think so. When you say that the mechanisms involved unconscious without intent, that doesn't make sense yet to me. Not because it's unconscious movement, as you say, but I don't think you can determine how the movement really happened. Maybe you can, I don't know. Do you think you can determine how this unconscious movement you speak of happened?

You don't feel so. If you thought about it you might understand the processes involved are just the natural unfolding of physics or chemistry,

Do you think that every time something moves, or changes, or happens it's the hand of God manipulating things? If a rock rolls downhill, water freezes, wood burns, or rain falls it's a divine mystery?
We can determine how these things happen; we know the mechanisms involved. They're natural, unplanned, undirected. No magic is involved.
Why is this so hard to grasp?
You see physics working everyday. You see technology working. These are predictable processes operating by known, observable mechanisms -- yet apparently they baffle you.

 

[Valjean]

Thats a good answer so quit arguing like your answer is the only possible answer there could be.

There is not evidence the BB happened.

Where do you think physicists came up with the idea? Did they just pull it out of their hats? Are you not aware of the observations that led to this hypothesis?
There is evidence of the Big Bang. We do not understand the mechanisms involved, but it's pretty clear the event occurred.
Q: What alternative do you imagine?

There is no evidence that life began from non-life.

Again, what alternative mechanism would you propose? At one time there was no life. Now there is. Life began -- how?

 

[Valjean]

In reference to life and viruses, here is one summary by a scientist. I notice, however, it has been said to be a philosophical discussion based on what constitutes life. Nevertheless, here it is, in part. The rest can be found at the link.
(Regarding the workings of viruses) -- "Once they infect, or take over, a host, they hijack the host cell to reproduce. Viruses have some of the features of a living entity in that they can reproduce and mutate. However, they can't move on their own or survive outside of a host body."
Yes now, I find that interesting and have questions about it. How Do Viruses Mutate, and What Is the Role of Epidemiology?.

Why are you always asking questions you can answer yourself just by applying the knowledge you already have?
Think: What is mutation? If you know what it is, know what viruses are, and know how viruses are copied, the answer is right there.

 

[YoursTrue]

You don't feel so. If you thought about it you might understand the processes involved are just the natural unfolding of physics or chemistry,

Do you think that every time something moves, or changes, or happens it's the hand of God manipulating things? If a rock rolls downhill, water freezes, wood burns, or rain falls it's a divine mystery?
We can determine how these things happen; we know the mechanisms involved. They're natural, unplanned, undirected. No magic is involved.
Why is this so hard to grasp?
You see physics working everyday. You see technology working. These are predictable processes operating by known, observable mechanisms -- yet apparently they baffle you.

I find it difficult to understand your posits here. But to set some matters clear perhaps about my thinking, no, I do not think that every time something moves or changes or happens it's the hand of God manipulating things. So let's try to set that matter straight if possible. For instance, I do not think that if someone is born with a debilitating illness or mutation it is the hand of God performing it.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Creation and Evolution are the same thing are they not? As the artist is creating his work is it not evolving and as it is evolving is it not also being created? However both are the result of Emanation ( Thought ) and Manifestation. Manifestation being the end result of both the creative and evolutionary process. Creation and Evolution are physical in nature but Emanation is Metaphysical and Manifestation is Spiritual. Only the Spiritual can permeate, pervade and perdure all things. The Holy Spirit is cohort to The Generative Word and moves and acts under the Power of said Generative Word. The body of Christ is The Generative Word and the Blood of Christ is the Holy Spirit. God is an uncaused cause that is both Essence (Love) and Existence (Life). Love is Metaphysical and Life is Spiritual and their physical aspects are what we experience although the "True" physical is both Metaphysical and Spiritual in nature.

Welcome. Nice little sermon there.

Now prove it empirically.

 

[Valjean]

True that Darwin did not know how eyes came to be. Or, as you say, evolved.

Darwin knew almost nothing compared to what we know today. The mammalian eye is no longer a baffling mystery.

 

[YoursTrue]

Why are you always asking questions you can answer yourself just by applying the knowledge you already have?
Think: What is mutation? If you know what it is, know what viruses are, and know how viruses are copied, the answer is right there.

I am just really finding out about viruses. Which I find interesting. I did not know that viruses cannot live (for long) without a host. But now from what I read, viruses cannot live for long without a host. So now my question is, and you don't have to answer if you don't want to (it's ok), how long do viruses live without a host and exactly how is a virus formed? I'm not asking for the parts of a virus formation, but rather how an individual virus would be formed from the onset of a virus cell. I am pretty sure I can look that up though, but I wanted to let you know about my fascination about viruses right now.

 

[Valjean]

Genesis 2:19 "And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air;..."
That does not say they came from dirt. It says they were formed out of the ground, and just like the form of the man in Genesis 2:7 had to be given life so did the all of the animals that were formed from the ground. All life belongs to God, and He can remove it at anytime He chooses.

What evidence do you have for this?

So no, the Biblical account of the work done on the forms of the animals and fowl and every other living creature had to have life supplied as the forms had no life of their own. They were just like a statues.

So what is life? You talk about it as if it were some kind of stuff that can be added to inanimate matter to make it alive. No such stuff has ever been found.

 

[YoursTrue]

Darwin knew almost nothing compared to what we know today. The mammalian eye is no longer a baffling mystery.

I wonder if scientists know precisely how eyes really evolved, if that's what they think, from the light-sensitive cell to bees' eyes and also human eyes. They can offer their thoughts, but do you think they really KNOW for sure?

 

[Valjean]

All I am doing is pointing out that the Egyptians and the Sumerians invented time as a way of measuring duration in existence. They did that using base 12 to account for 12 hours of light followed by 12 hours of darkness. Theirs was not perfect so along come the Swiss and we have all kinds of tools to measure the duration between events. We use stop watches, to measure the duration it takes for a horse to run a mile, a man/woman to run 100 yards, the duration of an airplane trip from the Cayman Islands to New York City. Those are function of time in the universe I live in.

Now in space/time what is the function of time?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Enjoy,

Did you read the link in my post? Did you google spacetime?
Time and duration are what they appear to us to be.

Can you follow this explanation? Special relativity - Wikipedia