On the fence...

[neale68]

Hi all - I'm very new to the forum. I felt compelled to come here to get some feedback. I have been Catholic for a very short time. I was confirmed in 2003. I began to teach at a Catholic school in 2001. Being a teacher of course, afforded me the opportunity to become more and more involved in the church. Last year, I began going through a program to learn more about Catholicism. However, the more I have learned, the more and more I DISAGREE with what the Church teaches. Right now, I feel like a fraud - I don't want to minister to anyone with the way I feel. I don't think I should go to a church where I feel like people are being excluded. I don't think that is what Christianity itself is based upon. But, since I have become such an integral part of this faith community, I don't know how to walk away.

Here's the rub - I met a man who is not Catholic and he had been married before - STRIKE ONE. I refused to put my husband through the annulment process since I thought it was very invasive and not fair to him. Plus you have to pay to go through the process. So, I basically had to leave my job at the Catholic school because they knew too much. When I re-applied to another school, I pretty much kept my mouth shut - don't ask, don't tell kind of thing. Next, my husband did a lot of work for our church/school through the kindness of his heart (and of course, for me). At first, it was okay, but then many people made comments that they didn't want him doing the work because he wasn't Catholic. Then, without warning, they opted to go a different route. No thank you, no offer to pay for his services - ultimately, he was willing to give the work he had done to them FOR free. STRIKE TWO.

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith. I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

 

[Shuddhasattva]

I know it's cliché but... follow your heart. Your intuition, common sense, intellect, just about everything really is telling you that the Church is corrupted.

The sense of betrayal, outrage, etc. can lead to a situation of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What do you want to take away from this as a positive?

 

[Reverend Richard]

.................I have been Catholic for a very short time. I was confirmed in 2003.

I am a "former" Catholic convert, too.

.................I began to teach at a Catholic school in 2001. Being a teacher of course, afforded me the opportunity to become more and more involved in the church. Last year, I began going through a program to learn more about Catholicism. However, the more I have learned, the more and more I DISAGREE with what the Church teaches. Right now, I feel like a fraud - I don't want to minister to anyone with the way I feel. I don't think I should go to a church where I feel like people are being excluded. I don't think that is what Christianity itself is based upon. But, since I have become such an integral part of this faith community, I don't know how to walk away.

Given your description (below) what do you feel you owe them? It sounds like they (your faith community) have already walked away from your family.

.................Here's the rub - I met a man who is not Catholic and he had been married before - STRIKE ONE. I refused to put my husband through the annulment process since I thought it was very invasive and not fair to him. Plus you have to pay to go through the process. So, I basically had to leave my job at the Catholic school because they knew too much. When I re-applied to another school, I pretty much kept my mouth shut - don't ask, don't tell kind of thing. Next, my husband did a lot of work for our church/school through the kindness of his heart (and of course, for me). At first, it was okay, but then many people made comments that they didn't want him doing the work because he wasn't Catholic. Then, without warning, they opted to go a different route. No thank you, no offer to pay for his services - ultimately, he was willing to give the work he had done to them FOR free. STRIKE TWO.

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith. I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Not long after I converted to Catholicism, I felt like I was being called to be a minister (a priest?), but as you know Catholic priests (or most of them) cannot be married, so I was stuck. I eventually left the RCC to pursue my own search for spiritual fulfillment. That search took many years (decades) and I am now a minister in another faith that is not even close to Catholicism.

As another poster already commented, you must "follow your heart".

Just remember the words of Martin Luther: "Every man must do two things on his (or her) own: they must do their own believing and their own dying."

 

[Nakosis]

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith. I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

We all mess up, make mistakes, take the wrong path.

I thought the Christian idea was one of forgiveness and acceptance of anyone choosing to follow the path of Jesus.

Kind of hard to hold any conviction for a church that seems unable to implement these basic ideas.

That being said I've known a Catholic Bishop who seem to me a really good, fair individual. So it maybe the individuals you happen to be dealing with, not all Catholics are necessarily as judgmental.

 

[outhouse]

Hi all - I'm very new to the forum. I felt compelled to come here to get some feedback. I have been Catholic for a very short time. I was confirmed in 2003. I began to teach at a Catholic school in 2001. Being a teacher of course, afforded me the opportunity to become more and more involved in the church. Last year, I began going through a program to learn more about Catholicism. However, the more I have learned, the more and more I DISAGREE with what the Church teaches. Right now, I feel like a fraud - I don't want to minister to anyone with the way I feel. I don't think I should go to a church where I feel like people are being excluded. I don't think that is what Christianity itself is based upon. But, since I have become such an integral part of this faith community, I don't know how to walk away.

Here's the rub - I met a man who is not Catholic and he had been married before - STRIKE ONE. I refused to put my husband through the annulment process since I thought it was very invasive and not fair to him. Plus you have to pay to go through the process. So, I basically had to leave my job at the Catholic school because they knew too much. When I re-applied to another school, I pretty much kept my mouth shut - don't ask, don't tell kind of thing. Next, my husband did a lot of work for our church/school through the kindness of his heart (and of course, for me). At first, it was okay, but then many people made comments that they didn't want him doing the work because he wasn't Catholic. Then, without warning, they opted to go a different route. No thank you, no offer to pay for his services - ultimately, he was willing to give the work he had done to them FOR free. STRIKE TWO.

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith. I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Only you can make choices regarding your belief.

often times education in theism and a open mind tend to give you insight not many know.


I say make the choices that keep you and your family the happiest first and formost

 

[Rocky S]

Hi all - I'm very new to the forum. I felt compelled to come here to get some feedback. I have been Catholic for a very short time. I was confirmed in 2003. I began to teach at a Catholic school in 2001. Being a teacher of course, afforded me the opportunity to become more and more involved in the church. Last year, I began going through a program to learn more about Catholicism. However, the more I have learned, the more and more I DISAGREE with what the Church teaches. Right now, I feel like a fraud - I don't want to minister to anyone with the way I feel. I don't think I should go to a church where I feel like people are being excluded. I don't think that is what Christianity itself is based upon. But, since I have become such an integral part of this faith community, I don't know how to walk away.

Of course I am not a roman catholic, my father is and we disagree on many doctrinal issues. I have a friend that is in a similar situation and he has been confiding in me about a few things he is going through.

Here's the rub - I met a man who is not Catholic and he had been married before - STRIKE ONE.

I know of a couple who could not partake of the eucharist because of a similar situation.

I refused to put my husband through the annulment process since I thought it was very invasive and not fair to him.

Right because the marriage has to be recognised by the Roman church

Plus you have to pay to go through the process. So, I basically had to leave my job at the Catholic school because they knew too much. When I re-applied to another school, I pretty much kept my mouth shut - don't ask, don't tell kind of thing. Next, my husband did a lot of work for our church/school through the kindness of his heart (and of course, for me).

what religion is your husband?

at first, it was okay, but then many people made comments that they didn't want him doing the work because he wasn't Catholic. Then, without warning, they opted to go a different route. No thank you, no offer to pay for his services - ultimately, he was willing to give the work he had done to them FOR free. STRIKE TWO.

I do know this, from studying catholicism a lot of its doctrine concerning these issues are not base on the bible but on tradition. I have also noticed something, and I pointed this out to my friend that I mentioned. If the traditions of the church or even their catechism contradicts the bible. They the always side with tradition over the written word.. why is that? It says In the catechism concerning this: 82 as a result the church, to whom the transmission and interpretation of Revelation is entrusted, "does not derive her certainty about all revealed truths from the holy Scriptures alone. Both Scriptures and Tradition must be accepted and honored with equal sentiments of devotion and reverence." Any ways, sorry for the rabbit trail lol. In a protestant church if someone was married before conversion and gets a divorce before they came to know the lord, then gets remarried, then if the individual gets born again, that marriage is recognised by the church. Because Paul put it this way "old things are passed away and all things become new". Talking with my dad, I do Know catholicism does not believe in being born again in the sense Jesus spoke about. It is more indoctrination, he(my dad)calls it being born again and again, he is very offended at the words "being saved" which is in the bible, even in that wording.

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith.

like what?,please elaborate, I asked that for a reason.

I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.
Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

 

[England my lionheart]

I know it's cliché but... follow your heart. Your intuition, common sense, intellect, just about everything really is telling you that the Church is corrupted.

The sense of betrayal, outrage, etc. can lead to a situation of throwing the baby out with the bathwater. What do you want to take away from this as a positive?

This and welcome to the RF

 

[neale68]

First, is the fact that I was Catholic before I met my husband - why should "his sin" be a reflection of me - why should he have to get his first marriage annulled. Before I met him, I was in "good standing."

Second, and this is a big one for me, contraception and legalized abortion. I do realize now, as a grown adult, that abortion should not be used as a mean's of birth control, but a don't believe that I should force my views/opinions/rights upon someone else. The big debate with the birth control - how organizations within different dioceses shouldn't have to provide this service....well under HIPAA laws, the church shouldn't even know what types of meds I take!

Third, I disagree with the Church "interfering" with my political views. I am a Democrat, and I hate the fact that since I voted for the President, some would say I shouldn't be allowed to receive Holy Communion (despite the fact that I have been).

"Segregating" people based on their own beliefs - I guess what I mean to say here is gays and lesbians. I recently heard of a story of a woman who lost her mother, went to church for the funeral and the priest refused her communion (in front of all the people there). Then the priest apparently walked out while the woman gave the eulogy for her mother. I could never abandon someone during their time of need.

 

[Nakosis]

Third, I disagree with the Church "interfering" with my political views. I am a Democrat, and I hate the fact that since I voted for the President, some would say I shouldn't be allowed to receive Holy Communion (despite the fact that I have been).

Really!

Kind of silly anyway. In California the Catholic Churches tend to favor liberal candidates because of the large Hispanic population.

"Segregating" people based on their own beliefs - I guess what I mean to say here is gays and lesbians. I recently heard of a story of a woman who lost her mother, went to church for the funeral and the priest refused her communion (in front of all the people there). Then the priest apparently walked out while the woman gave the eulogy for her mother. I could never abandon someone during their time of need.

The Catholic Church is a political organization. It has a political agenda to manipulate laws according to it's ideology. To survive I suppose as a religious authority. If it is found to have no real authority how's it going to survive?

Unfortunate I think it's real goal should be spiritual salvation of he individual. However hows it going to do that if it can't survive as a political entity?

What are they going to do? Say sorry they were wrong about everything? Still expecting to be taken as having any credible authority earthly or otherwise.

I've always thought if you can determine the true motivation of an organization you can determine how far they can be trusted.

I don't know, what do you think their true motivation is.

 

[Breathe]

Welcome to RF

Did you consider other Christian groups which are sort of "Catholic Lite"? Anglicanism, Lutheranism, Methodism, and so on?

 

[BBTimeless]

First, is the fact that I was Catholic before I met my husband - why should "his sin" be a reflection of me - why should he have to get his first marriage annulled. Before I met him, I was in "good standing."

Second, and this is a big one for me, contraception and legalized abortion. I do realize now, as a grown adult, that abortion should not be used as a mean's of birth control, but a don't believe that I should force my views/opinions/rights upon someone else. The big debate with the birth control - how organizations within different dioceses shouldn't have to provide this service....well under HIPAA laws, the church shouldn't even know what types of meds I take!

Third, I disagree with the Church "interfering" with my political views. I am a Democrat, and I hate the fact that since I voted for the President, some would say I shouldn't be allowed to receive Holy Communion (despite the fact that I have been).

"Segregating" people based on their own beliefs - I guess what I mean to say here is gays and lesbians. I recently heard of a story of a woman who lost her mother, went to church for the funeral and the priest refused her communion (in front of all the people there). Then the priest apparently walked out while the woman gave the eulogy for her mother. I could never abandon someone during their time of need.

Welcome to RF!

Always remember that your time here is limited and valuable. If you do not have passion in regards to the community you are a part of, you need to find another community. Period. This is your time, not theirs. If you believe they have an agenda or their views clash with yours in such a way that it creates personal tension, walk away.

 

[neale68]

Yes, I am considering...but not ready to go church "hopping" right now.

 

[neale68]

I am very humbled by everyone's response. It isn't an easy decision - one I'm not trying to take lightly, but I've been very unhappy for some time. I often times feel like a hypocrite or a fraud for being at the Church. I have always had a sense of spirituality about me - but I do believe it's about the Golden Rule - how you treat others. You have all been very helpful.

 

[Nakosis]

I am very humbled by everyone's response. It isn't an easy decision - one I'm not trying to take lightly, but I've been very unhappy for some time. I often times feel like a hypocrite or a fraud for being at the Church. I have always had a sense of spirituality about me - but I do believe it's about the Golden Rule - how you treat others. You have all been very helpful.

There was I time that I thought if I stepped into a church I might get burned to a crisp.

I think that if God loves you, he has to love you for who you are. Not for who others think you ought to be. Maybe I'm wrong but the truth is I can't be anybody other then who I am anyway. So I just got to trust that is good enough for God.

 

[BSM1]

Why does everyone feel they have to confine their faith to a particular group. I have said many times that every one has to find their own truth. It wasn't until today that I found out Martin Luther said it first. Thanks, Rev.

 

[thau]

[Here is my opinion, if interested. Your words in bold.]

First, is the fact that I was Catholic before I met my husband - why should "his sin" be a reflection of me - why should he have to get his first marriage annulled. Before I met him, I was in "good standing."

Perhaps because we as Catholics or even Christians should not be allowed to intervene in the marriage vows of another. Sure, once it’s well beyond the initial meeting stage with another who is divorced, the bond becomes so much stronger and meaningful. At that point, the messy and formal affair of an annulments seems so much of a barrier to something that could benefit the new couple. I refuse to comment dogmatically on anyone’s personal situation beyond that.


Second, and this is a big one for me, contraception and legalized abortion. I do realize now, as a grown adult, that abortion should not be used as a mean's of birth control, but a don't believe that I should force my views/opinions/rights upon someone else.

What do you mean by “force?” Do you think abortion is the only law in the land that deals with morals? What about porn theatres by schools? How dare we force businesses down? What about polygamy? Public nudity in a bar? These are laws the public deems to be for the common good. The same goes for abortion. If the public considers abortion to be immoral or bad for the common good, then the public can vote this into law and we must obey. No one is forcing anyone to do anything beyond what the law states. As to what God wants --- the Bible is often quite clear as to how and when a Christian needs to speak up, witness, take courage and not cower into their corners letting others do as they please.


The big debate with the birth control - how organizations within different dioceses shouldn't have to provide this service....well under HIPAA laws, the church shouldn't even know what types of meds I take!


The big debate, as I understand it, is really about government imposing unfair practices upon churches to abide by, including paying for some abortifacients. A number of dioceses are self-insured so they are paying for their employees’ selections. It is a matter of moral principle, not practice. We all know a large majority of practicing Catholics use artificial contraception, but that does not mean the Catholic Church should now teach it’s Ok any more than they should say gossip is now Ok because so many engage in that, too.


Third, I disagree with the Church "interfering" with my political views. I am a Democrat, and I hate the fact that since I voted for the President, some would say I shouldn't be allowed to receive Holy Communion (despite the fact that I have been).

I object to your making what the Catholic Church officially teaches tantamount to what some Catholics, or a certain priest, is telling you. Just because Father O’Leary says voting for a pro-abortion candidate should mean you cannot receive communion (and I suspect what you are implying is extremely rare) has nothing to do with what the Catholic Church teaches or ordains. So, unfair to make that argument.


"Segregating" people based on their own beliefs - I guess what I mean to say here is gays and lesbians. I recently heard of a story of a woman who lost her mother, went to church for the funeral and the priest refused her communion (in front of all the people there). Then the priest apparently walked out while the woman gave the eulogy for her mother. I could never abandon someone during their time of need.

I, once again, object to you using the exception to define the rule. I know of a Chicago cop who said to a woman it is Ok to offer sex and then no ticket would be given to her for speeding. I think it is terrible the Chicago Police department has such rules and allowances. Is that a fair statement?

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I have no issue with you questioning or disagreeing with Catholic dogma, doctrine or official teachings in its Cathechism. I do call into question what you or others have decided those teachings are based on personal experience with a particular priest or a group of parishoners. Also, do realize that the Catholic Church teaches some extremely important doctrines that are rejected by almost all Protestant teachings, such as the doctrine of purgatory, the importance of the intercession of the saints, honoring the Blessed Mother, the sacrament of confession, and the Holy Eucharist. To leave the Catholic Church involves far more than just objecting to their position on divorce or contraception. This is just my opinion being voiced out loud, I am not judging you or your reasons for what you believe.

 

[ChristineES]

Hi all - I'm very new to the forum. I felt compelled to come here to get some feedback. I have been Catholic for a very short time. I was confirmed in 2003. I began to teach at a Catholic school in 2001. Being a teacher of course, afforded me the opportunity to become more and more involved in the church. Last year, I began going through a program to learn more about Catholicism. However, the more I have learned, the more and more I DISAGREE with what the Church teaches. Right now, I feel like a fraud - I don't want to minister to anyone with the way I feel. I don't think I should go to a church where I feel like people are being excluded. I don't think that is what Christianity itself is based upon. But, since I have become such an integral part of this faith community, I don't know how to walk away.

Here's the rub - I met a man who is not Catholic and he had been married before - STRIKE ONE. I refused to put my husband through the annulment process since I thought it was very invasive and not fair to him. Plus you have to pay to go through the process. So, I basically had to leave my job at the Catholic school because they knew too much. When I re-applied to another school, I pretty much kept my mouth shut - don't ask, don't tell kind of thing. Next, my husband did a lot of work for our church/school through the kindness of his heart (and of course, for me). At first, it was okay, but then many people made comments that they didn't want him doing the work because he wasn't Catholic. Then, without warning, they opted to go a different route. No thank you, no offer to pay for his services - ultimately, he was willing to give the work he had done to them FOR free. STRIKE TWO.

And again, many, many things I disagree with the Catholic faith. I don't feel that I should be spreading a message that I don't believe in. Bottom line, I believe in the Golden Rule, but don't think we should exclude people based on their beliefs.

Okay, I think that's enough for now. Thank you in advance for your thoughts.

Welcome to the RF!

If you still have the faith, you could easily go to another denomination. There are more liberal denominations you could choose from. I can understand your disappointment in the Church judging you and and your husband when they are not perfect themselves. I had to leave the Southern Baptist church because they were too hardcore for my taste- I am just a regular Baptist now (whatever that is- there are 500 different kinds of Baptists or so, LOL). That is about the only advice I can offer you. I will pray for you, if you like, that you can make the choice that is best for you and your husband.

 

[neale68]

I feel that what it boils down to is that these issues, these rules, are man-made rules. I wasn't alive during the time of Christ, but I have a feeling that he didn't carry around the "Catechism..." I do believe that the Catholic faith does NOT welcome all people - unless, of course, you keep your mouth shut. Which is what I've been doing for far too long. I don't want to be part of any religion, organization, etc. that excludes anyone. I believe that we should CO-EXIST regardless of our religion, race, creed, gender, etc. And one thing that I had never really thought of until another "poster" said on here...Jesus lived with a group of men. Which was probably not unusual for the day, but regardless, he lived with a group of men (and the women were usually segregated from the men). Jesus himself was an outcast. I realize that my rants sound like someone who has no grip on reality, but maybe, just maybe that is part of my faith journey. Ultimately, the choice is mine (and yours) as to what you believe. I thought that perhaps by joining a forum like this, it would help me to discover those who might be struggling with the same thoughts that I am. Of course, my motto has always been, "first, do no harm." I, like yourself, vanityofvanitys, am only thinking out loud. I am not looking for affirmation or condemnation. I'm only looking perhaps for a voice of reason.

 

[thau]

I feel that what it boils down to is that these issues, these rules, are man-made rules. I wasn't alive during the time of Christ, but I have a feeling that he didn't carry around the "Catechism..." I do believe that the Catholic faith does NOT welcome all people - unless, of course, you keep your mouth shut. Which is what I've been doing for far too long. I don't want to be part of any religion, organization, etc. that excludes anyone. I believe that we should CO-EXIST regardless of our religion, race, creed, gender, etc. And one thing that I had never really thought of until another "poster" said on here...Jesus lived with a group of men. Which was probably not unusual for the day, but regardless, he lived with a group of men (and the women were usually segregated from the men). Jesus himself was an outcast. I realize that my rants sound like someone who has no grip on reality, but maybe, just maybe that is part of my faith journey. Ultimately, the choice is mine (and yours) as to what you believe. I thought that perhaps by joining a forum like this, it would help me to discover those who might be struggling with the same thoughts that I am. Of course, my motto has always been, "first, do no harm." I, like yourself, vanityofvanitys, am only thinking out loud. I am not looking for affirmation or condemnation. I'm only looking perhaps for a voice of reason.

Fair enough, Neale68, I do not doubt your sincerity which is important to God no doubt.

Two points: My thoughts need not be interpreted as a dogmatic affirmation or condemnation of your own thoughts or beliefs. This forum is merely an exchange of ideas and I am only expressing mine.

Jesus knew there would be many interpretations of His many words and messages. He knew there would be prophets of all stripes succeeding him. The charge of “man made laws” could then be applied to anyone’s claims or opinions. I suspect, if you adhere to Scripture, that is why He established His Church in Matthew 16 to which He said “I give thee the keys of the kingdom” no less. He also said “whatsoever thou (His Church) bind on earth shall be bound in heaven.” In other words, an ordained authority would be necessary to interpret Scriptures and be the most entrusted representative of Chirst on earth for deciding many differences and for providing the most favored path for salvation. I also believe God did not intend for who that “Church” is to be a total mystery. People are free to disagree, but I feel confident it remains the Roman Catholic Church there at the beginning and sustained by apostolic succession.