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On the Morality of Harm

Which is morally worse?


  • Total voters
    19

Alex_G

Enlightner of the Senses
Is it a dog or human that's doing the torturing?

:p good question. Lets just stick with human for now.

Perhaps consider it from the point of view of being the agent responsible urself, which might you detest the idea of doing more, and also from the perspective of a witness to some1 else. What do you make of that person, and what kind of rationalisations might make someone more likely to do one or the other? Are they legitimate justification?

Alex
 

Zoe Doidge

Basically a Goddess
In your opinion, which, if either, is morally worse, the torture of a dog or a human? What reasons inform your decision?

Alex

With humans, torture can be a tool of information extraction or punishment but I can't imagine the same could ever be required for dogs.

But I'd have to say both were equivalent, assuming there's no reason for it other than sadism, and he only suitable response to that is execution.
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
I voted that they are equivalent.
As far as I know, the pain and stress, anxiety and trauma are very strong for both creatures. I would not know if it cause greater suffering in one or the other.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Good points. The degree of suffering is indeed hard to measure, and in some sense actually impossible as u mention. When I frame the question in terms of morality I’m not only asking which might be objectively worse in terms of absolute suffering, that of a human or a dog, but also to consider what potential justifications or rational goes through the mind of the agent responsible for the deeds, and what degree of legitimacy they hold.

As per you fruitful examples, it’s clear that suffering can vary drastically between different creatures, even ones of the same species. Simple nociceptive pain amongst similarly developed creatures will likely be fundamentally the same if slightly varied in severity on some normal distribution. The greater variation comes from the modulating effect of a psychological overlay, which is highly specified to the individual. All of which you pointed out.

My concern would be that in creating a hierarchical list of potential suffering, although on the face of it sensible, I’m not sure it lends itself perfectly to a means of acting in a moral way. Clearly you can be very wrong in what you anticipate, and to rely on such a thing rigidly seems problematic. I mean on one side, even though the monk suffers less, does that somehow permit someone to subject them to more harm than they do another? I don’t think so. So even in situations where the moral agent is actually correct in his anticipation of potential suffering, it still seems wrong to me that such action be guided by this sort of hard calculus.

Also due to the consequences involved, I think one should be skewed into anticipating the creatures suffering to be worse rather than milder. To overestimate what ones believes to be the resultant suffering of an action seems better than to underestimate when you consider the potential outcomes.

I would therefore agree with you regarding the theory of how objective suffering might well vary, but with respects to informing action relating to suffering I would air on the side of caution, such that if I can detect that a creature can suffer full stop, they deserve the same maximum respect from me.

I always worry about the slippery slope of considering the suffering of other creatures to be less so on some scale (esp considering how difficult it actually is to anticipate accurately the suffering of an individual as you pointed out), and with so much animal mistreatment in the world, it seems that much evil can occur from not allowing adequate range to the respect offered, and to horribly underestimating the reality.


Alex

(Ps sorry for the delay, I was crazy busy yesterday.)
I think forming a rough hierarchy of suffering is a rather critical element to deciding moral behavior, actually. Not a slippery slope.

Our understanding of how a thing will react to our actions plays a big role in what those actions should be. It plays a part in what we eat, it plays a part in abortion debates, it plays a part in the ethics of medicine (both in its application to humans and animals in various conscious states, and in its application to research with animals), it plays a part in law, and so forth. And I agree that intentions matter as well.

-It's what allows someone to say, for instance, that using Lysol to kill countless bacteria is not necessarily on the same moral plane as some genocidal despot that kills countless humans, and that therefore they should not be held accountable in a similar way.

-It's what determines the length of time a person should spend in prison for wrongdoing. Personally, I think some of the ways people treat food-animals should be criminal. But on the other hand, I don't think mistreatment of an animal should result in life in prison in the same way that similar treatment of a human might.

-It plays (or should play) a huge part in what people are willing to eat, and how they are willing to do it.
 

Marble

Rolling Marble
I think the torture of a human is worse.
Because when a human is tortured the human will have thoughts like "Why is this happening to me?", "Why is this happening to me?", Why does this person do this?", "What have I done to receive such treatment?".
A dog, being just an animal, cannot think and therefore will suffer - but not as much as a human.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think the torture of a human is worse.
Because when a human is tortured the human will have thoughts like "Why is this happening to me?", "Why is this happening to me?", Why does this person do this?", "What have I done to receive such treatment?".
A dog, being just an animal, cannot think and therefore will suffer - but not as much as a human.
A dog cannot think?
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I think the torture of a human is worse.
Because when a human is tortured the human will have thoughts like "Why is this happening to me?", "Why is this happening to me?", Why does this person do this?", "What have I done to receive such treatment?".
A dog, being just an animal, cannot think and therefore will suffer - but not as much as a human.

Fear is fear and pain is pain.
 
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