On the other side of life.

[Brian2]

I don't think you're interested in a reasonable discussion on this issue.

Did I say something that was not reasonable?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The evidence in OBEs in NDEs is that consciousness and hearing and sight can exist outside of our bodies.

There is no such verifiable properly documented evidence.

There are a lot of claims though. These fall in the category of haunted houses and alien abduction.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't know how it can be said that the characteristics of NDEs are consistent with a dying brain unless the characteristics of a dying brain are somehow known outside of NDEs.
Or are you saying that a scientist has decided that NDE experience is what a dying brain does? and that this person does not even have to bring in the possibility of an afterlife or spirit etc because that has not been shown to exist?
There have been NDEs where the people have reported witnessing verified events in other rooms.
This imo should be verified OBE but I don't think that science would see it that way.
So that would mean it would be up to you whether you would see something like this as verified OBE. (verified to you that is)

I love how you are kind of acknowledging that none of this is verifiable (because then it would be scientific, and you explicitly say it isn't in bolded part).

And then you add that what is actually needed to "believe" in these NDE/OBE nonsense is "faith", in the second bolded part.

So much for actual verifiability.

 

[Brian2]

There is no such verifiable properly documented evidence.

There are a lot of claims though. These fall in the category of haunted houses and alien abduction.

There have been medical doctors and surgeons and study groups who have done properly documented studies. It becomes a matter of whether we are willing to believe the obvious conclusions that should be reached from these studies of not.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

 

[Brian2]

I love how you are kind of acknowledging that none of this is verifiable (because then it would be scientific, and you explicitly say it isn't in bolded part).

And then you add that what is actually needed to "believe" in these NDE/OBE nonsense is "faith", in the second bolded part.

So much for actual verifiability.

You say "So much for actual verifiability" as if memories of OBE experiences in NDEs have not been verified through the verified events they have experienced.
BUT verification of these memories for some reason is not enough to verify the OBEs and not enough to verify the existence of consciousness outside the body at these times.
That seems to be some sort of inability of science or of some people to see the obvious when it is staring them in the face.
Reason along with scientific study can take us right to believing in spirits, consciousness outside our body. But you can take a horse to water but not make the horse drink.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There have been medical doctors and surgeons and study groups who have done properly documented studies. It becomes a matter of whether we are willing to believe the obvious conclusions that should be reached from these studies of not.
Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

By "properly documented studies", what you really mean is that they collected anecdotes and interviewed people who claimed such anecdotes.

I could also round up hundreds, thousands, of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and summarize the common elements in their stories and then pretend to have a "properly documented" case in support of alien abduction.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You say "So much for actual verifiability" as if memories of OBE experiences in NDEs have not been verified through the verified events they have experienced.

They have not.
Those are anecdotal claims.

Reason along with scientific study can take us right to believing in spirits, consciousness outside our body

Perhaps. But so far that hasn't been done at all.
Anecdotal claims are not a substitute.

 

[Brian2]

By "properly documented studies", what you really mean is that they collected anecdotes and interviewed people who claimed such anecdotes.

I could also round up hundreds, thousands, of people who claim to have been abducted by aliens and summarize the common elements in their stories and then pretend to have a "properly documented" case in support of alien abduction.

No I mean that the collected anecdotes have been verified in the case of verified OBEs.
So really the missing bit is a decision on whether these verified OBEs are because of activity in the brain or activity of consciousness outside the body.
Which one would Occam's Razor cut out?
In science it seems to be that consciousness outside the body is cut out but that is not a reasonable conclusion imo.

 

[Brian2]

They have not.
Those are anecdotal claims.

When does an anecdotal claim become verified? Isn't it when the claim is shown to be a true claim.
If so then many of the OBE memories have been verified.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

No I mean that the collected anecdotes have been verified in the case of verified OBEs.

You can't verify anecdotes after the facts unless you set up some kind of controlled conditions a priori.

Here's an idea to properly test it:

Go to the hospital into the wing where there are critical patients that struggle to survive.
Take a piece of paper and write a secret unusual sentence on it.
Like for example "Tom likes pumpkin pie but dislikes cookie dough".
Then put such papers face up on top of the chandelier or closet or whatever. In such a way that it is impossible to read from below... you'ld have to look at it from above (which can't be done without a ladder).

Then ask those who claim and OBE to repeat what sentence is written on the paper.
For this test to work properly, you'ld have to set it up in such a way that it can be guaranteed that NOBODY - including nurses, doctors, etc, knows what the sentence is.

It would take some work and preparation, but it can certainly be done.

I predict that nobody will have it correct.

So really the missing bit is a decision on whether these verified OBEs are because of activity in the brain or activity of consciousness outside the body.
Which one would Occam's Razor cut out?

The latter one, since the first one doesn't require the assumption of outlandish things for which there is no evidence (like "consciousness" being able to exist absent a physical brain).

In science it seems to be that consciousness outside the body is cut out but that is not a reasonable conclusion imo.

It is very reasonable, since literally ALL the evidence points to consciousness being a function of the physical brain.

And literally NO evidence exists that shows it can exist absent a physical brain.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

When does an anecdotal claim become verified? Isn't it when the claim is shown to be a true claim.
If so then many of the OBE memories have been verified.

Give me your best example of an "OBE memory" that has been "verified" and explain in detail how that verification took place.

 

[Brian2]

Give me your best example of an "OBE memory" that has been "verified" and explain in detail how that verification took place.

They are stories of what the OBE person remembers. How do you think the stories are verified? It is by asking the people involved in the stories (nurses and doctors and whoever else) what happened, to see if the memories match up with the memories of the others.
I have heard of one such memory where an OBE person remembered a number on top of a machine in an operating theater.
I have heard of an incident where the OBE person remembered what happened in a different operating theater and it was matched with what happened.
In the link I gave there are memories of how a person was revived and a control group who did not have OBEs and who were asked to say how they were revived. The OBEers got it right a lot more.

 

[Brian2]

You can't verify anecdotes after the facts unless you set up some kind of controlled conditions a priori.

Here's an idea to properly test it:

Go to the hospital into the wing where there are critical patients that struggle to survive.
Take a piece of paper and write a secret unusual sentence on it.
Like for example "Tom likes pumpkin pie but dislikes cookie dough".
Then put such papers face up on top of the chandelier or closet or whatever. In such a way that it is impossible to read from below... you'ld have to look at it from above (which can't be done without a ladder).

Then ask those who claim and OBE to repeat what sentence is written on the paper.
For this test to work properly, you'ld have to set it up in such a way that it can be guaranteed that NOBODY - including nurses, doctors, etc, knows what the sentence is.

It would take some work and preparation, but it can certainly be done.

I predict that nobody will have it correct.

Tests have been set up and I suppose are recording data now.
Designing a "Near-Death Experience" Reality Testing System

The latter one, since the first one doesn't require the assumption of outlandish things for which there is no evidence (like "consciousness" being able to exist absent a physical brain).

It is very reasonable, since literally ALL the evidence points to consciousness being a function of the physical brain.

And literally NO evidence exists that shows it can exist absent a physical brain.[/QUOTE]

To pull the plug on OBEs in NDEs being evidence for consciousness outside the body should require evidence that the reported memories are not true.
Otherwise it is a case of "Evidence is required before anything is accepted as evidence".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

They are stories of what the OBE person remembers. How do you think the stories are verified? It is by asking the people involved in the stories (nurses and doctors and whoever else) what happened, to see if the memories match up with the memories of the others.

Yes. It's the piling on of anecdotal evidence.

I have heard of one such memory where an OBE person remembered a number on top of a machine in an operating theater.
I have heard of an incident where the OBE person remembered what happened in a different operating theater and it was matched with what happened.
In the link I gave there are memories of how a person was revived and a control group who did not have OBEs and who were asked to say how they were revived. The OBEers got it right a lot more.

You "heard".
They "remembered".
They "said"

Listen to yourself.
This is not different from the many tales of haunted houses and alien abductions.

Do the experiment I suggested under actual controlled conditions so that you don't need to rely on things you "heard" and anecdotes and "memories".

Again, I predict nobody will come up with the correct sentence after their "experience".

A hospital could easily set something like this up. And it could easily be done in such a way that nobody in the hospital actually knows what the sentence is.

If OBE's are real, then after a reasonable amount of time, not just one but several people should be able to come up with the correct sentence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

To pull the plug on OBEs in NDEs being evidence for consciousness outside the body should require evidence that the reported memories are not true.
Otherwise it is a case of "Evidence is required before anything is accepted as evidence".

The problem is that all your examples are anecdotal and so far none are in context of proper controlled conditions where one can rule out all the usual suspects.

That's what controlled conditions are all about.