On the variety of God proofs

[Muslim-UK]

Unlike you I don't pretend to know such things, guess my ego is just not as big as yours.

Well there you go then, you have faith in what you believe, and I have faith in what I believe. Unto you be your way, and unto me be mine.
Salam

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Well there you go then, you have faith in what you believe, and I have faith in what I believe. Unto you be your way, and unto me be mine.
Salam

That makes no sense as I am admitting to an absence of knowledge therefore there is an absence of faith. You are making a false equivalence. You are the one pretending to have the answers, you are the one with faith.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Hit your friend and see what he does. Keep hitting him and see how your karmic relationship changes or affects your relationship. You made a cause. You got an affect. Once you made the cause, htting, do you forget about it? Unless you have poor memory (making a point), Im sure you will remember your past and predict the future based on your actions.

That's just common sense. The past life I was referring to was the one which I lived before being born to my current mother.

Kamma means action. Many people have knowledge of their past lives; and, yes, we learn from the past even if its just an hour ago.

What happens when this current life is over?

I dont see how this relates.

You don't hold to the Pantheistic view? GOD is everywhere and in everything? Thus the Universe, Nature and we humans are all Gods from within?

I said energy is the mover. Energy is god. You said energy has no cause. Energy (in this case heat) is what makes things function and form not create. You cant live without energy/god. The action itself not the cause of it.

where did I say energy has no cause? Theists believe GOD created energy, atoms, mass, matter, time, space. Everything we know of and can see is the result of GOD having created it.

You say "energy is God." Starting with the Universe, where did the energy needed to create it come from?
You say, "Energy (in this case heat) is what makes things function and form not create." You agree undirected energy can not create, so there must be a intelligent consciousness that exists, which directed the energy in the Universe resulting in creation, a very deliberate, calculating Source/GOD.

I dont see how you got to that conclusion? Sounds like assumption not fact.

We are exploring as rational minds do.

 

[Muslim-UK]

"In science there are no universal truths, just views of the world that have yet to be shown to be false"
Professor Brian Cox.

Nice way of saying, we have no CLUE, just a bunch of theories. Nothing wrong with that of course, Science has it's place and is a invaluable tool to understanding how things work. However, as a tool is it totally ill equipped to answer the ultimate question, does GOD exist. For that we have to rely on our own reasoning, intellect and "faith", which can't be measured, prodded, inspected or dissected.

 

[Muslim-UK]

That makes no sense as I am admitting to an absence of knowledge therefore there is an absence of faith. You are making a false equivalence. You are the one pretending to have the answers, you are the one with faith.

Does make sense to me, because you are demanding tangible evidence, whilst being unable to provide any yourself. You have faith in theories and Science, and I have complete and total faith backed up by evidence pointing to GOD.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Does make sense to me, because you are demanding tangible evidence, whilst being unable to provide any yourself. You have faith in theories and Science, and I have complete and total faith backed up by evidence pointing to GOD.

I have tangible evidence that I don't know these things, it is called my brain, and as far as I know I am the only one of us two with access to it. Your ego really is large, as now you also think you have mind reading powers.

 

[Muslim-UK]

How did you get from DNA having a plan (structure not plan)
and god?

Likely because we know DNA is like code found in programming, only this code is so complex and mind boggling, that only a ALL Powerful, ALL Intelligent Being, ie GOD must be behind it as the Ultimate Programmer.

And why one god over another?

This has been explained many times. There is ONLY ONE GOD. He is known by different names, and some of the Scriptures sent by Him have been lost, changed and corrupted. The oldest known civilisations say, He is ONE. It matters not what people call Him, Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloh, Elah, Allah, YHWH etc etc

 

[Jeremiahcp]

Does make sense to me, because you are demanding tangible evidence, whilst being unable to provide any yourself. You have faith in theories and Science, and I have complete and total faith backed up by evidence pointing to GOD.

You faith in your god must be really weak if you need it to be equivalent to my absence of faith in your god.

 

[Muslim-UK]

I have tangible evidence that I don't know these things, it is called my brain, and as far as I know I am the only one of us two with access to it. You ego really is large, as now you also think you have mind reading powers.

That's great. My brain tells me something can't come from nothing, therefore something must have created the Universe. My brain tells me the code written in DNA must have come from a outside source, a source beyond our senses. Likely the same source as created the Universe. Nothing about ego, though you appear desperate to make it appear so.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

That's great. My brain tells me something can't come from nothing, therefore something must have created the Universe. My brain tells me the code written in DNA must have come from a outside source, a source beyond our senses. Likely the same source as created the Universe. Nothing about ego, though you appear desperate to make it appear so.

And you just now expounded precisely what the God of the Gaps is, and as I mentioned before I am not making claims to what these "somethings" are. That is the difference, and that is why it is called "GOD" of the Gaps, as you are using your god to fill in the gaps. I am willing to admit there are gaps in my knowledge and that I don't know these things. You can't even follow the conversation.

 

[DavidFirth]

Are you pantheist, satanist, atheist, pagan, etc?
To call True God as: "Flying Spaghetti Monster", "Pink Dragon in my garage", "tree", "table", "Nature", "Cosmos", "nothing-ness", "satan" is the "names calling fallacy". God likes God-approved names. The name calling fallacy mixes together two different things, e.g.: Spaghetti = Jesus Christ.
God is defined as "absolutely superior one". We are stronger than tree, thus we can not write "God=Tree", otherwise it is name-calling fallacy.

There are many God proofs. Let us start with "5 ways of Thomas A."
Five Ways (Aquinas) - Wikipedia

So the work of Thomas has be described as:

1. God is the First Cause (the events are caused), is the Lawmaker (there are laws), is the Reason (there is reasonable system of notions and definitions), and First Mover (the things are moving). The fuel of stars (hydrogen) is being burned out without compensation, so there must be Immaterial Beginning of Material World.

Many other proofs can be added.

2. The time machines do exist in Science, so the God is needed to solve their paradoxes. God and Reason can not be separated.

3. Let us calculate probability of Allknowing Being. He -by definition- knows all, thus, He knows about own existence. Therefore, the probability of Him is exact 100 percent.

4. The existence of God is dogma. A dogma is the absolute true knowledge. Thus, the God is proved among theists. According to theists, the blasphemers have not disproved any of the proofs. The theists are forbidden to lie, thus, the liars are the blasphemers of the proofs.

5. If one finds a watch in forest, he is exactly 100% sure, that it came from Watchmaker with Free-will (by definition of a human). Thus, there is Nature-maker in our sub-conscious knowledge.

The ontological proofs, e.g.,

6. The work of Kant can be described following:
The Free Will is obvious (otherwise there can not be the prisoners), so, there is God.

7. The work of Anselm gives:
we can think of infinitely influential being. If He does not exist in outside reality, then He is not infinitely influential. Then because of law of non-contradiction, the being in our mind lives in outside reality.

FROM DISCUSSION:

1) Proofs rest on unverifiable premises?! You have just a wishful thinking fallacy.

2) The "circles of life" does not apply the circular time: the Beginning of Universe is not the End of it. To power the circle of life a fuel is needed.

3) According to Einstein, the falling body is in weightless-ness, thus, there is no force of gravity in General Relativity.

4) What is knowledge? It is an any proven thing. Proven to God. So, the God is Knowledge.

5) "God of the Gaps" will remain forever in Physics. Because there is Theology in top Universes: the Science is not only the Physics. Science is the Quest for Knowledge, and faith is the faithfulness to Knowledge. Thus, the Gaps in Physics are filled with information from Theology. So, there are no gaps in Reality.

There are currently no logical proofs of God's existence with any merit.

 

[Muslim-UK]

There are currently no logical proofs of God's existence with any merit.

Are you saying, as a theist, your mind finds no logical evidence to support belief in GOD?

 

[Muslim-UK]

And you just now expounded precisely what the God of the Gaps is, and as I mentioned before I am not making claims to what these "somethings" are. That is the difference, and that is why it is called "GOD" of the Gaps, as you are using your god to fill in the gaps. I am willing to admit there are gaps in my knowledge and that I don't know these things. You can't even follow the conversation.

As it stands, I'm using my brain to arrive at my belief in GOD, and you choose to await answers, (theories) from men to tell you what they think, the answers are based purely on a naturalistic world view. As I said before, you have your way, and I have mine.

Even Dawkins uses his brain to conclude something outside of Earth may have caused life to start here:

 

[Unveiled Artist]

One thing I like about Buddhism is there is so much humility in conversations. There is also a lack of who is right or wrong because the focus is on spiritual growth not proving ones validity of faith. I never got that about abrahamic religions. One of the many reasons I left it.

What happens when this current life is over?

Each person goes through rebirth. We are born again until we reach full enlightenment. Then we die. Life is a cycle. You see it in nature. We are no exclusion.

When your current life is over temporaly, the rest still here goes on without us. The earth survives without us.

You don't hold to the Pantheistic view? GOD is everywhere and in everything? Thus the Universe, Nature and we humans are all Gods from within?

That is not Buddhist teachings. I think Tentai believes something similar. Energy is god. Energy is all things. Take out the word god and it will make more sense.

where did I say energy has no cause? Theists believe GOD created energy, atoms, mass, matter, time, space. Everything we know of and can see is the result of GOD having created it.

It is a belief. Energy has no beginning. Energy is god. Does god have a beginning?

You say "energy is God." Starting with the Universe, where did the energy needed to create it come from?
You say, "Energy (in this case heat) is what makes things function and form not create." You agree undirected energy can not create, so there must be a intelligent consciousness that exists, which directed the energy in the Universe resulting in creation, a very deliberate, calculating Source/GOD.

Exactly. No god/creator just what forms and moves preexisting things from one thing to another. To us we use the word creation. Nothing is created. Its an illusion of putting together something outside our current awareness and definition.

We are exploring as rational minds do.

Theist have rational minds just as atheists. How we conduct our rationality for the benefit of self and others is the ket not trying to validate our beliefs to others even to ourselves.

Likely because we know DNA is like code found in programming, only this code is so complex and mind boggling, that only a ALL Powerful, ALL Intelligent Being, ie GOD must be behind it as the Ultimate Programme

Its not mind boggling. Its something we dont know.

How did you get to that answer god just because DNA has a code?

This has been explained many times. There is ONLY ONE GOD. He is known by different names, and some of the Scriptures sent by Him have been lost, changed and corrupted. The oldest known civilisations say, He is ONE. It matters not what people call Him, Yahweh, Jehovah, Eloh, Elah, Allah, YHWH etc etc

No need to caps. I rather you pick apart your belief and explain it to me as a child who knows nothing about how an invisible being exists as a mystery who does things and can only exist by the testimony of others.

I literally and honestly do not know what a god/being/creator is.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

As it stands, I'm using my brain to arrive at my belief in GOD, and you choose to await answers, (theories) from men to tell you what they think, the answers are based purely on a naturalistic world view. As I said before, you have your way, and I have mine.

Even Dawkins uses his brain to conclude something outside of Earth may have caused life to start here:

"you choose to await answers"

I am not waiting on someone else, as I am OK with not knowing. Unlike you I don't think I need an answer for everything.


"As I said before, you have your way, and I have mine."

Apparently you have no clue what "my way" is, but you sure do like to pretend you do.

 

[DavidFirth]

Are you saying, as a theist, your mind finds no logical evidence to support belief in GOD?

No, that's not what I said. What I said I meant. If you know of a logical proof then please post it. If you don't then you have to just admit I'm right.

 

[Muslim-UK]

One thing I like about Buddhism is there is so much humility in conversations. There is also a lack of who is right or wrong because the focus is on spiritual growth not proving ones validity of faith. I never got that about abrahamic religions. One of the many reasons I left it.

As I said, we're looking at beliefs, mainly yours and mine rationally and I'm trying to see if your views resonate with me.

Each person goes through rebirth. We are born again until we reach full enlightenment. Then we die. Life is a cycle. You see it in nature. We are no exclusion.

So Billions of people know of their pasts lives in order that they learn from them?

When your current life is over temporaly, the rest still here goes on without us. The earth survives without us.

I can agree with this.

That is not Buddhist teachings. I think Tentai believes something similar. Energy is god. Energy is all things. Take out the word god and it will make more sense.

Seems no different to me. Pantheists believe everything is God/Energy.

It is a belief. Energy has no beginning.

The most widely held theory in the Scientific community is that the Universe started with a Big Bang using such energy that everything exploded out and started to expand the Universe. This clearly shows Energy had a starting point, otherwise the Universe would have always existed to support energy as always being there.

Energy is god. Does god have a beginning?

Beginnings and endings are words we use to describe things within the Universe. GOD is outside of His Creation, so the notion of God having a beginning is redundant.

Exactly. No god/creator just what forms and moves preexisting things from one thing to another. To us we use the word creation. Nothing is created. Its an illusion of putting together something outside our current awareness and definition.

My Laptop has been created, and I'm using it now. It's not an illusion. The people who made it were paid, it was real money. Try going to the store and helping yourself to your weekly shop without paying. If stopped just tell them it's an illusion, the goods aren't really there. Not very rational right :/

Theist have rational minds just as atheists. How we conduct our rationality for the benefit of self and others is the ket not trying to validate our beliefs to others even to ourselves.

I agree, which is why I love living in a richly diverse Country as the U.K. is.

Its not mind boggling. Its something we dont know.

Looks pretty mind boggling to most people:

The genome continues to show evidence of complexity and precise design.

“While the prevalence of this new genetic code in the DNA seems to be less common than cytosine methylations, the unexpected linguistic complexity of this epigenetic tag is anything but simple,”

Jeffrey P. Tomkins, Ph.D in genetics writes, “As scientific discovery advances in the field of genomics, the genome and its diversity of elaborate interlocking languages speaks of vast levels of intelligent bio-engineering, not purposeless random evolution.”

How did you get to that answer god just because DNA has a code?

As shown DNA looks extremely complex to me and points to a Programmer. But no ordinary Programmer, this One is Intelligent beyond anything we can fathom. Very much All Knowing and All Powerful, which is how I rationally got to GOD.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

As I said, we're looking at beliefs, mainly yours and mine rationally and I'm trying to see if your views resonate with me.

I dont think our beliefs can be rationalized by each other's. Finding god in a godless belief is like if you relate to my belief, thats like trying to find the start of a circle.

So Billions of people know of their pasts lives in order that they learn from them?

Yes.

I can agree with this.

Seems no different to me. Pantheists believe everything is God/Energy.

It depends on the sect. Tentai believes plants have buddhanature (Potiential to be enlightened). Mahayanas believe we have buddha nature to help others before ourselves. Therevada helps others by helping themselves first in the process. God is an origin. Karma is not. God is said to be love. The Buddha said the nature of life is not love but suffering.

Pantheists are varried. I never heard a pantheist call god energy. Everything is moved by energy. Religion is besides the point.

The most widely held theory in the Scientific community is that the Universe started with a Big Bang using such energy that everything exploded out and started to expand the Universe. This clearly shows Energy had a starting point, otherwise the Universe would have always existed to support energy as always being there.

Energy has always been there. No beginning to energy. Its everywhere in the universe. Just because we exist doesnt mean we're special and the only perfect solar system in one of many galaxies.

Beginnings and endings are words we use to describe things within the Universe. GOD is outside of His Creation, so the notion of God having a beginning is redundant.

Universe haw no beginning nor end. Thats humans trying to find an origin. They dont like the fact we are just as animals and plants. They want a beginning to define themselves. They want an end to be at peace. I was never raised to see life like that.

My Laptop has been created, and I'm using it now. It's not an illusion. The people who made it were paid, it was real money. Try going to the store and helping yourself to your weekly shop without paying. If stopped just tell them it's an illusion, the goods aren't really there. Not very rational right :/

Where did the parts come from to "make" your laptop?

Go back far enough you realize its from the earth. Create is a human word. Your laptop always existed. Now its in a form we call laptop rather than murcury and metal etc.

We didnt create money. I think if Im not mistaken money comes from trees. All come from the earth.

I agree, which is why I love living in a richly diverse Country as the U.K. is.

Ive never been out if the states. It depends here. Im fortunate to live near the city. Many states dont have much diversity especially in regards to religion.

As shown DNA looks extremely complex to me and points to a Programmer. But no ordinary Programmer, this One is Intelligent beyond anything we can fathom. Very much All Knowing and All Powerful, which is how I rationally got to GOD.

I dont get it. Nothing is created. My cell phone has no creator. They just molded and put together already existing parts of the earth to make what we label a cell phone.

DNA is just that. Structure does not mean creator. Structure is how humans define what they call a pattern. Take out humans, and you realise the universe is spontaneous.

Seizures are natural flare ups of the neurons. We call it an illness because of how it affects the brain etc. In itself, its what the body is designed to do. It is spontaneous activity of the brain.

Same as cancer and other "illnesses." We call them that because they break the structure. We like design because we can predict results. The Buddha taught design is an illusion. We dont have control. Life is uncertain.

You can believe in god to hsve certainity. That doesnt change that life, the universe, has no origin. Without humans, god wouldnt exist.