On Working With Gods & Making Requests Of Them

[The Kilted Heathen]

As of late there's been a growing tendency within the Online Heathen Community that in essence attempts to shut down prayers made to the gods. People are told that they shouldn't go to a god they don't have a standing relationship with, that it's like asking a complete stranger for things. I've even seen devotionals and offerings treated with this manner of scorn.

I think this is quite negative, and ignores a great many things that are central to Heathenry. Recently I received two requests that made me think about this more in-depth, so I will use them as example first.

My morning began with a text message, asking if I could cover a 5-hour shift that very day, not an hour after getting this text. A bribe of $10 was even offered. Later I got a call from another coworker, asking if I could cover a 3-hour shift two days from now. Now, to be frank, I don't really like either coworker. The first is manipulative and abusive towards other coworkers, and has not given anyone good reason to like her. The second coworker is a pain, whines often, but doesn't rock the boat too much.

Coworker A annoys me far more, and I didn't see much in her offer for me; $10, yes, but also having to shake off the effects of NyQuil, get myself sorted for the day, and rush in to work on time. Coworker B's offer was much more accommodating, so that's the one that I took.

A second example that comes to mind is the way in which we treat musicians. They're often seen as gods among men; listening to their music is tantamount to worship, and we all entertain flights of fancy with what we would do should we meet them. Some bands are much more down-to-earth, sharing drinks with their fans after the show and mingling among us. (I've met Heidevolk in this manner). Others reply eagerly on social media - I've had replies by Troll Bends Fir (and even Felicia Day) in this manner - yet they still remain above us as icons of our fandom or musical taste. Interactions are fleeting, formal while fun, but certainly not scarce.

Some bands are detached to a degree, but very appreciative of their fanbase. The Russian band Arkona doesn't often meet with fans, doesn't speak the languages of many of their fans, but still manage to appreciate fan art, gifts, and recognize fans who win contests (I've received several of these sort of acknowledgements from them.) On the negative end, there are also bands - like Tyr - who don't much care for their fanbase, and even stoop so low as to mock them in interviews and their song material.

So how does this relate to the gods?

Far from never daring to bother a god because "we don't have a relationship", we ought to go out on that limb. In Heathenry, our deeds speak and our gods are not often known to be vengeful or spiteful. As the example given with several bands, if you make enough noise and make things that they enjoy and appreciate, the gods will extend a hand to you. Even if you're found to be annoying, if your offer is good enough and convenient enough, help may very well be given to you.

Our gods are not detached, judgmental beings. They move among us, and some - like Odin - quite enjoy taking part in human affairs. Gods like Thor, who even if he's not present for a "concert" still puts out thunderstorms for us to enjoy and worship him through. We all have relationships with the gods by our very calling of faith, and we all have the opportunity and the will to push that relationship past simply listening to CD's and going to concerts, and to start getting Instagram likes or autographs (to use the metaphor).

The best way to do that, though, is through effort. Make things for the gods, give offerings to the gods; live a life that is honorable, reputable, and interesting to get the attention of not only your community but the gods themselves. Build yourself to be someone they wouldn't mind helping here and there, knowing that your actions in their name will also bring them honor.

 

[Hildeburh]

As of late there's been a growing tendency within the Online Heathen Community that in essence attempts to shut down prayers made to the gods. People are told that they shouldn't go to a god they don't have a standing relationship with, that it's like asking a complete stranger for things. I've even seen devotionals and offerings treated with this manner of scorn.

This discussion is far from new in Heathenry, its been bubbling along for a decade. Other Heathens are not attempting to 'shut down' the honouring of our gods with prayers and offerings, this discussion is based solely on the lore. People generally feel scorned or angry or whatever because their UPG is challenged.

This discussion was a backlash against the rampant UPG and the New Age importation of anything and everything from unrelated belief systems into Heathenry. One such importation was the notion that if we only ask nicely any god/ess would intervene in our mundane life.

The mindset that the gods, any chosen god, must attend to my personal needs developed from a modern worldview, one in which the individual is the most important unit in society. One of the difficulties for modern Heathens is how to balance the modern tendency toward solipsism with a Heathen worldview which focused on the group.

I am wondering if you honour your ancestors, which for me would be the first wights I would focus on for building personal luck.

I think this is quite negative, and ignores a great many things that are central to Heathenry.

That's quite an statement, what exactly does it ignore that is central to Heathenry? Who's Heathenry? Do you perceive that there was only one Heathenry? Or perhaps you are expressing your UPG in regard to your own form of Heathenry?

So how does this relate to the gods?

It doesn't. These are examples of personal feelings our feelings are important to us and our kin but they don't tell us anything in regard to our gods.

In Heathenry, our deeds speak and our gods are not often known to be vengeful or spiteful.

The gods weren't often vengeful or spiteful? Oh my, have you read the Eddas and Sagas? Its full of spite and vengeance, so I can only conclude that this statement is based on a non Heathen worldview.

Our deeds speak, we are our deeds, these sayings are based on the gnomic verses of the Hávamál.

Cattle die, | and kinsmen die,
And so one dies one's self;
One thing now | that never dies,
The fame of a dead man's deeds.
Hávamál

This stanza of the Hávamál speaks of the human concern for reputation after death. Reputation lived on after death and was a way of being remembered by the family, clan, tribe or warband. With rare exceptions an individual reputation was not the concern of the gods but our deeds are important to our kin and our ancestors.

Our gods are not detached, judgmental beings. They move among us, and some - like Odin - quite enjoy taking part in human affairs.

Yes, Odin wandered the earth but he's not Gandelf. Odin's interactions with individuals seldom went well, did it? Personally, I would think very hard about cultivating any sort of relationship or randomly asking for a boon from such a fickle god as Odin.

Odin's quests on earth or anywhere else for that matter were not aimed at improving the lot of man they were self interested quests for knowledge, power or fighting men to add to his army.

Gods like Thor, who even if he's not present for a "concert" still puts out thunderstorms for us to enjoy and worship him through. We all have relationships with the gods by our very calling of faith.

You believe Thor makes a thunderstorm? I think our understanding of nature has progressed a little since that of the Vikings.

Just on a personal note, I live in the tropics and thunderstorms can be costly, destructive and heartbreaking. I'm pretty sure the pre Christian people felt the same, not much enjoyment to be had in losing your entire crop/house/livestock to a storm.

How exactly do we worship Thor through thunderstorms?

So you think we have a personal relationship with the gods simply because we are Heathen? I would say you are grafting a Christian worldview onto the Old Gods.

From what we know of the belief system of the Germanic tribes and the ways they honoured their deities I would say that they sacrificed a great deal to secure luck from their wights rather than expecting it because they were Heathens.

The best way to do that, though, is through effort. Make things for the gods, give offerings to the gods; live a life that is honorable, reputable, and interesting to get the attention of not only your community but the gods themselves. Build yourself to be someone they wouldn't mind helping here and there, knowing that your actions in their name will also bring them honor.

Yes, Heathenry is othopraxic the god/essess were honoured via the votive sacrifice; which is supported by plenty of archeology and lore. Sacrifices were communal events; history, the lore and archeological evidence supports the view that the gods/esses were culted by groups not individuals.

But getting the attention of the gods was not necessarily a good thing, it's actually difficult to think of one average individual in the lore that benefited from the intervention of a god. Not so hard to recall the murder, rape and the high price paid for the intervention of a god (I'm thinking of Odin here).

 

[Treks]

Oohh! A case in point

 

[Hildeburh]

Oohh! A case in point

Is it how so? Do you think Heathens should stop having these discussions because it might hurt someones delicate sensibilities?

 

[Politesse]

Not only do I think it acceptable to offer devotions to a God without first forming a personal relationship with them, I think there are many situations in which it would be unaccountably rude not to. When one is worshiping with their community, for instance, or traveling in their traditional territory, or using a plant or medicine associated with their practice, or if one has a kin relationship that one was never able to explore but nevertheless wishes to honor. It's all well and good to try and deepen relationships, but that is not a process that can or should be rushed, and there are a great many gods alive in the world. Other kinds of diplomacy are incumbent on us.

 

[Hildeburh]

Not only do I think it acceptable to offer devotions to a God without first forming a personal relationship with them, I think there are many situations in which it would be unaccountably rude not to. When one is worshiping with their community, for instance, or traveling in their traditional territory, or using a plant or medicine associated with their practice, or if one has a kin relationship that one was never able to explore but nevertheless wishes to honor. It's all well and good to try and deepen relationships, but that is not a process that can or should be rushed, and there are a great many gods alive in the world. Other kinds of diplomacy are incumbent on us.

That's an interesting general statement but from what worldview is it drawn and how is it related to Heathenry?

Pre Christian Heathens honoured their deities as groups the smallest of which would have been the household, the wights honoured were local, ancestors and related to fertility.

The article below is available as a pdf it discusses the evidence for cultic activity conducted in the domestic or familial sphere rather than in public sphere:

Luke John Murphy, Familial Religion in Pre-Christian Scandinavia? Ancestor-Worship, Mother-Priestesses, and Offerings for the Elves.

From a Heathen perspective there is evidence from the Sagas that travelers were actively turned away during blots because they were not considered members of the group, so therefore not eligible to take part in honouring the localised wight. I live in Australia and the situation is similar in Australian Aboriginal culture, if you are not an initiated member of the group you do not attend ceremonies.

Exploring kin relationships? Are you taking about an ancestor practice? If so there is a good deal of information on the centrality of ancestors cults in Norse and Anglo-Saxon belief systems, which is why it is a feature of most Heathens practices today.

 

[Politesse]

That's an interesting general statement but from what worldview is it drawn and how is it related to Heathenry?

Pre Christian Heathens honoured their deities as groups the smallest of which would have been the household, the wights honoured were local, ancestors and related to fertility.

The article below is available as a pdf it discusses the evidence for cultic activity conducted in the domestic or familial sphere rather than in public sphere:

Luke John Murphy, Familial Religion in Pre-Christian Scandinavia? Ancestor-Worship, Mother-Priestesses, and Offerings for the Elves.

From a Heathen perspective there is evidence from the Sagas that travelers were actively turned away during blots because they were not considered members of the group, so therefore not eligible to take part in honouring the localised wight. I live in Australia and the situation is similar in Australian Aboriginal culture, if you are not an initiated member of the group you do not attend ceremonies.

Exploring kin relationships? Are you taking about an ancestor practice? If so there is a good deal of information on the centrality of ancestors cults in Norse and Anglo-Saxon belief systems, which is why it is a feature of most Heathens practices today.

Luckily, if you wish to have a conversation from which non-Heathens are excluded, RF has been kind enough to create a specific forum for the purpose. It is located at Heathenry DIR.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Other Heathens are not attempting to 'shut down' the honouring of our gods with prayers and offerings, this discussion is based solely on the lore.

Perhaps in other circles, or "offline" Kindreds, but so far as within the Online Community - Facebook, Reddit, etc - there absolutely is this drive to shut down such worship and honoring. I see it and moderate against it almost daily.

This discussion was a backlash against the rampant UPG and the New Age importation of anything and everything from unrelated belief systems into Heathenry.

This might be perhaps another discussion, because what I see - and what I was addressing with this essay - doesn't really touch on Unverified Personal Gnosis. It stuff like someone's Kindred - as a group - honoring Freyr for a harvest, or appealing to Forseti for justice, and being told by Armchair Heathens "Have you ever worked with them before? They're not going to answer you."

The point of my essay overall being that no one - no matter how learned - can speak for the gods. If Odin decides to take interest in an individual or a group, that's for Odin to decide and do.

There is also the modern fact that times have changed, and the belief that our gods have changed with them. 64% of Heathens world wide (and this includes but is not limited to those who identify as Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, Ásatrú, Asatro, Firne Sitte, Forn Sed, Forn Siðr, Germanic Heathenry, Germanic Neopaganism, Germanic Paganism, Heathenism, Heathenry, Norse Paganism, Norse Religion, Northern Tradition, Odinism, Old Way, Theodism, Urglaawe, and Vanatru) are solitary practitioners with no true Kindred to speak of. Whether through isolation from fellow Heathens or general disinterest in socialization.

And while ancestor veneration is a large part of Heathenry ideologically, some have problems with doing this; namely that many of our ancestors - if we even know them - are Christian. This puts many Heathens off from associating with them; some that I've spoken to cannot maintain a healthy relationship with their ancestors because they are considered "damned".

There are also some things that we turn to the gods to that we cannot ask of our ancestors, as they have no authority. Our ancestors don't bring rain, nurture crops, or even grant us safe passage across specific areas of travel. They don't guard the woods, or ferry the dead, or ward off harmful spirits from our homes. One thing (at least) that separates Heathenry from religions like Christianity is that our gods are not removed from this plane of existence, or so far above us that the only means of worship are singing praises and telling them how awesome they are.

One such importation was the notion that if we only ask nicely any god/ess would intervene in our mundane life. The mindset that the gods, any chosen god, must attend to my personal needs developed from a modern worldview, one in which the individual is the most important unit in society.

As above, it's not objection to this that I was addressing. Asking Odin to grant you an A on a test is ridiculous, yes, and it all but goes without saying that one would be better off studying than accepting divine intervention. When the gods are petitioned or requests made of them, it's usually things that we cannot possible achieve--not quite miracles, but things above our physical abilities.

Everything that we have today has developed from a modern worldview; it's almost impossible not to. And as also noted above, with 64% of the global community they're not just the "most important unit" in their Heathen society, they're the only unit. I don't feel it helpful or right to tell people that the gods won't answer them because they haven't racked up the requisite number of brownie points; to me that is a deterrent statement born from a sense of elitism.

I am wondering if you honour your ancestors, which for me would be the first wights I would focus on for building personal luck.

Yes, I do - in fact, I did that last night for Winterfyllith - and yes, they are who I turn to first for personal luck.

That's quite an statement, what exactly does it ignore that is central to Heathenry?

That our gods move about us, and are known to take notice of exceptional and interesting people. No, this is not my own UPG, but a gathered group knowledge from discussion with many different manner of Heathens - from Lokeans to strict Anglo-Saxon Heathens, and even a few who worship the gods not as entities by archetypes.

The gods weren't often vengeful or spiteful? Oh my, have you read the Eddas and Sagas?

Yes and I regard them as stories with no small portion of trouble in regards to interpretation and potential Christian influence. Despite Thor being temperamental and furious, have you ever known the thunderstorm to seek out one particular peoples in spite? Does Freyr who sends the rain remember those who scorn him, and strike their lands with drought?

Yes, Odin wandered the earth but he's not Gandelf.

Oddly enough, Odin was Tolkien's inspiration for Gandalf. Yet if Odin wandered the earth, but doesn't take interest in the people around him, one must wonder what he was doing? From the stories, his interaction with people only went as well as they treated him. Some were made kings for their hospitality, others driven mad and to their deaths. For a god who gave his eye for wisdom, and seeks it with furious passion, it's not far-fetched at all to think this would include all knowledges and stories.

You believe Thor makes a thunderstorm? I think our understanding of nature has progressed a little since that of the Vikings.

You're right, it has. We're able to tell what a thunderstorm is, what meteorological forces cause them to occur, and even predict them with moderate success. Yet none of this knowledge negates or disproves a belief that it is Thor creating those events or visiting Midgard through them.

I live in the Great Plains of America; thunderstorms are quite costly and dangerous here as well. In fact I've almost lost my life in one quite recently. Yet I still respect Thor - perhaps more so, knowing what can happen if I get in his way. I regard him with thanks, as thunderstorms bring about an often much-needed change of climate. I look to him for protection (not just for myself), because he is the guardian of Midgard. In all these ways and others, Thor is worshiped. This can be done through thunderstorms, as they are his presence here; much like one can appreciate (even worship, in a way) an artist through their art.

So you think we have a personal relationship with the gods simply because we are Heathen?

No, I'd say we have relationships with the gods because they have a hand in practically everything around us. That we are Heathens only means that we actively recognize them and worship them for that. With my examples regarding celebrity personalities or musicians, I would have hoped that the examples given would have dismissed any "Buddy Odin" (a la "Buddy Christ") sentimentalities; while I've held engaged conversations with Ray Park and Felicia Day, I'd hardly consider my relationship to them personal, or even a social relationship at all. And they're just fellow humans, not even gods.

From what we know of the belief system of the Germanic tribes and the ways they honoured their deities I would say that they sacrificed a great deal to secure luck from their wights rather than expecting it because they were Heathens.

Neither am I suggesting that one can just dial Odin up on the horn and say "Hey, I'm a Heathen; hook me up?" Our lives are very different from the Germanic tribes, but sacrifices can still mean the same as giving up an offering of something that we cannot get back. And while I can't say with authority that the gods would reply to an offering of a $2.00 shooter, while that may seem a poor sacrifice to one person it might be all that someone has left to their name.

...it's actually difficult to think of one average individual in the lore that benefited from the intervention of a god.

Well, first one would have to find an average individual in the lore at all. Given that they're tales of great people and heroes, that's likely a near-impossible task.

 

[Hildeburh]

Perhaps in other circles, or "offline" Kindreds, but so far as within the Online Community - Facebook, Reddit, etc - there absolutely is this drive to shut down such worship and honoring. I see it and moderate against it almost daily.

No one online, or offline for that matter, can shut down elements of your practice, unlike other religions we do not conduct progroms against each other. Heathens may however point out, as I do, that you cannot universalise UPG and that some ideas have no basis in the surviving corpus; people can do with that advice as they will.

Heathenry is a reconstructed and as such there will always be important issues to discuss and analyse. When people feel threatened they will resort to childish behaviours; like name calling, using common derogatory epithets for Heathens who challenge their UPG and flouncing off, we've all seen it, the poor behaviour reflects only on them.

Have to take your word for it I don't have a Facebook account. Reddit? Perhaps people should read something more germane to Heathenry and think through issues before looking online groups for validation of their personal epiphanies.

This might be perhaps another discussion, because what I see - and what I was addressing with this essay - doesn't really touch on Unverified Personal Gnosis. It stuff like someone's Kindred - as a group - honoring Freyr for a harvest, or appealing to Forseti for justice, and being told by Armchair Heathens "Have you ever worked with them before? They're not going to answer you.".

Your premise is built on UPG and homespun human analogy, ‘Odin enjoys taking part in human affairs, Thor puts out thunderstorms for us to enjoy and worship (since when did heathens worship thunderstorms), gods will extend a hand to you, even if you're found to be annoying’ . Support your ideas by using the surviving corpus otherwise these statements are an expression of your personal epiphanies.

We all have personal epiphanies, UPG is not to be derided, the difficulty arises when we try to universalise our own UPG across the Heathen community. Here's a discussion on UPG in Heathenry which is well worth reading:

The Matter of UPG - Real Heathenry

No one using a reconstructionist methodology is going to ask anyone ‘have you worked with them (a god?) before’, the entire notion that Heathen individuals or groups ‘worked with a god’ is based on modern Heathen books that syncretised non Heathen forms of modern paganism.

The Lore and supporting archaeological evidence is quite clear on how Heathens approached and honoured their divinities; it was a communal/familial/ household gifting cycle with votive offerings of food, weapons, precious objects, blood sacrifices. Though it's not very fashionable these days, Heathens approached their gods bound, kneeling and prostrated. Here is a blog that discusses the surviving Lore on approaching the gods:

Real Heathenry - Historical Perspective on Kneeling

Gods and humans were not equal, Heathens do not ‘work WITH the gods’, on that Lore is quite clear, some humans may have worked FOR the gods or more correctly been used by the gods, but most certainly not ‘worked WITH them’. Individuals that attracted the attention or ire of the gods, even some of the kings and heroes, paid a pretty high price. The examples from the Lore are many, here's a few -:

Thor took two children as servants as reparation for the parent breaking a bone in his goats leg, in Flóamanna saga Thor harasses Thorgils for converting to Christianity, in Gautreks saga Thor curses Starkaðr and Starkaðr blames Thor for his criminal reputation that forces him to flee Norway, Odin raped Rinda/r to beget a son to avenge the killing of Baldr, Rig slept with humans to create the social classes (Ok if you're a jarl but not so good if you're a serf), Freyr used his servant to threaten Gerdr with violence, Odin killed King Vikar when offered a mock sacrifice, Odin grants King On/Ane long life in return nine of the King’s sons are sacrificed, Odin and Frigg play games with the lives of their favorites (Geiroth and Agni), Egill Skallagrímsson blames Odin for the death of his sons after receiving the gift of poetry and slaves in the service of Nerthus are drowned.

Saxo Grammaticus in The Deeds of the Danes (page 162) wrote that Odin's exploits had so tarnished the name of the godhead that he was exiled for 10 years and stripped of worship.
https://www.amazon.com/Gesta-Danorum-Deeds-Saxo-Grammaticus/dp/1329902831

Since you raised Forseti, let's have a look at the scant evidence that turned Forseti into a god that modern Heathens appeal to for justice. The only reliable source on Forseti is found in a single stanza of Grímnismál (15). This single stanza has been used to create an entire modern mythos of Forseti as a people can appeal to for justice.

The evidence on Forseti is discussed here:

Forseti - Norse Mythology for Smart People
Nordic Gods A to M

The evidence that Heathen individuals or groups for that matter appealed to Forseti for justice cannot be deduced from Grímnismál; extrapolating anything on the basis of one stanza is tenuous.

The point of my essay overall being that no one - no matter how learned - can speak for the gods. If Odin decides to take interest in an individual or a group, that's for Odin to decide and do.

Then stop speaking for them: ‘Odin enjoys this, Thor makes that for our enjoyment, the gods will extend a hand to you, even if your annoying’, use the Lore as the basis for understanding and discussing the gods. Or put in a UPG alert when you write your blogs so that newbies don't take it as fact. The surviving corpus, history, linguistics, archeology, toponomy and modern scholarship represent the best sources we have for information on how our gods were culted and on pre-Christian Germanic beliefs. None of which you have referenced once in your discussion.

Prophets are not part of a Heathen worldview so any modern claim to ‘know our gods’, ‘to work with our gods’, to advice Heathens how to approach our gods that is not based on existing evidence is personal epiphany. Too many ideas in Heathenry are based on syncretic practices, assumptions, wishful thinking, preconceived ideas and imaginative readings of the Lore.

 

[Hildeburh]

Part 2

There is also the modern fact that times have changed, and the belief that our gods have changed with them. 64% of Heathens world wide (and this includes but is not limited to those who identify as Anglo-Saxon Heathenry, Ásatrú, Asatro, Firne Sitte, Forn Sed, Forn Siðr, Germanic Heathenry, Germanic Neopaganism, Germanic Paganism, Heathenism, Heathenry, Norse Paganism, Norse Religion, Northern Tradition, Odinism, Old Way, Theodism, Urglaawe, and Vanatru) are solitary practitioners with no true Kindred to speak of. Whether through isolation from fellow Heathens or general disinterest in socialization.

This is not your work, you need to cite your sources otherwise you may inadvertently be in breach of copyright laws or committing plagiarism. Your statistic (64.11% to be exact) and your list (which is verbatim from the cited sources below) are from the Worldwide Heathen Census of 2013 and the later derivative study conducted by Huginn’s Heathen Hof in 2016; results of which are discussed in these sources:

The Norse Mythology Blog | norsemyth.org: Worldwide Heathen Census 2013 | Articles & Interviews on Myth & Religion
The Norse Mythology Blog | norsemyth.org: Worldwide Heathen Census 2013: Results & Analysis | Articles & Interviews on Myth & Religion
World Wide Heathenry - Huginn's Heathen Hof
World Wide Heathenry - Huginn's Heathen Hof

Neither the list or statistic support any assumption regarding how our gods are perceived across the Heathen community, the census was a collation of data not a philosophical discussion. The fact that 64.11% are solitary is an important statistic and makes the understanding of the difference between public, household and ancestor cults all the more important to Heathens developing a practice.

I don't think there is a ‘general disinterest in socialisation’, in fact the Huggin’s Heathen Hof survey 2016 cited two reasons for the predominance of solitary practice; the lack of active Heathen groups and the avoidance of groups and practitioners who use Heathenry as a platform for promoting white supremacy and bigotry. Add to that the small numbers of Heathens in some countries (in single digits) the opportunity for ‘socialisation’ is limited. Which makes online forums important electronic meeting places for solitary practitioners.

Despite the Huggin’s Hof survey of 2016 stating that, “Heathenry is a very book-learning based form of practice” , there is unfortunately, for want of a better term, an academic cringe or over-reliance on poor quality literature that feeds into a desire for Heathenry to be whatever people want it to be; as evidenced by recent trends, such as, Loki nuns, god spouses and of worshiping the forces of chaos (Rokkatru).

And while ancestor veneration is a large part of Heathenry ideologically, some have problems with doing this; namely that many of our ancestors - if we even know them - are Christian. This puts many Heathens off from associating with them; some that I've spoken to cannot maintain a healthy relationship with their ancestors because they are considered "damned".

It doesn't matter if your ancestors were Christian or how many of them you personally knew, it is the practice of culting your ancestors and integrating them into your belief system that is Heathen; forging ties and relationships with kin and community is quintessentially Heathen. Our ancestors are a collective group that has a vested interest in you, your kins well-being and in the continuation of the family line. Your ancestors are your kin, your Innangardh, they are your honoured dead. For sure some of them were not so honourable but I doubt that has changed much from Heathen times.

The ancestors are tutelary spirits and their cult existed long before Christianity, there are few folk religions that did/does not in some way have a cult of the dead or of ancestors. Don't fall for the Christian conversion tactic of considering your ancestors disinterested, unapproachable or non existent. Christianity demonised and/or euhemerised our gods, dismissed and enacted laws against the veneration of genus loci and replaced cults of ancestors.

Even Roman Catholicism has a cult of the dead, I'm sure they will disagree, but it is difficult to see the Saints and relics as anything more than a cult of the dead.

Good to hear that you cult your ancestors, it seems that you have overcome the philosophical issues and reclaimed your ancestors. But I don't particularly understand your notion of ‘damned’, this is a Christian worldview not Heathen. There is a blog here on our honoured dead, which may answer some philosophical issues:

Real Heathenry - Honoring the Dead

There are also some things that we turn to the gods to that we cannot ask of our ancestors, as they have no authority. Our ancestors don't bring rain, nurture crops, or even grant us safe passage across specific areas of travel. They don't guard the woods, or ferry the dead, or ward off harmful spirits from our homes. One thing (at least) that separates Heathenry from religions like Christianity is that our gods are not removed from this plane of existence, or so far above us that the only means of worship are singing praises and telling them how awesome they are.

The ancestors and genus loci had a great deal of ‘authority’ and they were culted for fertility, protection and wellbeing. The cult of the Matronae, for example, was spread widely across Europe in 1-4th CE and from inscriptions we know that the Matronae were given votive offerings for prosperity, fertility, peace, health, abundance and protection. Shaw in his book Pagan Goddesses in the Early Germanic World: Eostre, Hreda and the Matrons draws a parallel between Eostre and the continental Matronae Austriahenae. Bede wrote that AS Heathens observed Modraniht (night of the Mothers’) at Yule, which Shaw considers may have also have been a cult of the Matronae. For a fuller discussion of the Matronae see below:

Kinship structures
Ancestral Mothers and Goddess Collectives in German Iron Age Votive Altars and Inscriptions dedicated to the “Matrones”. | Freyia Völundarhúsins

The notion that ancestors are unimportant in the day to day lives of pre-Christian Heathens is an unfortunate a byproduct of the focus of older Heathen literature on the gods, which in turn is a product of early scholarship which was heavily slanted toward public cults. This is a trend that is slowly changing with a greater emphasis being placed on developing an ancestor practice in modern Heathenry, by Heathen authors and by scholars who are focusing on the importance the ancestors/familial/household cults in Germanic customs.

Here are some resources, from our Lore that focus on ancestor cults and household/familial practices:

Living on: ancestors and the soul - University of the Highlands and Islands
https://pure.uhi.ac.uk › publications › livi…
British Library EThOS: Ancestors, their worship and the elite in Viking Age and early medieval Scandinavia
Ancestors - Norse Mythology for Smart People
Fylgjur – guardian spirits and ancestral mothers | Freyia Völundarhúsins
http://ethos.bl.uk/OrderDetails.do?uin=uk.bl.ethos.678795

Everything that we have today has developed from a modern worldview; it's almost impossible not to.

Everthing who has? Heathens? Who is this collective ‘we’ ? So your practice is based entirely on modern ways you have no room in your modern worldview for exploration and implement of the old ways?

Worldview is simply defined as a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world especially from a specific standpoint — called also weltanschauung.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worldview

Our standpoint is Heathenry as opposed to Christianity or Islam or atheism. Germanic folkways were a way of life, sets of customs closely linked to kinship, locality and the ancestors. The word used in the Norse corpus is forn siðr ‘ancient customs’, to understand these customs and apply them to our modern life we need to focus on our sources, our family, community and locality.

I will usually give three pieces of advice on how to develop a Heathen worldview. Firstly, divest yourself of presumptions, syncretisms, modern constructs and resist the urge to read anything into the Lore that isn't there. Secondly, build your community and focus on your region. Thirdly, read, read, read. There's a couple of resource that will assist with both all of suggestions:

http://heathentalk.com/2016/08/29/thinking-heathen-changing-behaviors-attitudes-and-concepts/
https://www.realheathenry.com/building-your-inner/
https://www.realheathenry.com/the-matter-of-upg/

Essentially reconstruction is the tool we use to build a mindset that would be recognisable to a pre Christian Heathen. This blog covers that topic:
https://www.realheathenry.com/misconceptions-of-reconstruction/

And as also noted above, with 64% of the global community they're not just the "most important unit" in their Heathen society, they're the only unit

Its not 64% of the global community, I only wish the Heathen community was that large. Solitary Heathens, of which I am one, are 64.11% of the Heathen community; not society there are no Heathen societies.

That our gods move about us, and are known to take notice of exceptional and interesting people. No, this is not my own UPG, but a gathered group knowledge from discussion with many different manner of Heathens.

That's the lore- the gods interact with Kings and Heroes. Reread your blog, I think you mentioned 'be interesting' once. Though a definition of interesting in keeping with the lore would need to be clarified.

 

[Hildeburh]

Part 3

Yes and I regard them as stories with no small portion of trouble in regards to interpretation and potential Christian influence. Despite Thor being temperamental and furious, have you ever known the thunderstorm to seek out one particular peoples in spite? Does Freyr who sends the rain remember those who scorn him, and strike their lands with drought?.

ALL of our sources are biased and/or linguistically difficult in one way or another. A great deal has been lost and as the Germanic tribes were characterised by primary orality we have no primary written sources; apart from pre-Christian runic inscriptions. Without the surviving corpus we would have next to nothing so we owe these early authors a debt of gratitude, as long as that sense of gratitude is tempered by critical thinking.

Because of the nature of our sources we must proceed cautiously in our interpretations, looking for themes and corroboration, making use of linguistics, toponomy, history, academic interpretations and archeology to help us come to grips with the highly nuanced and obscure myths, poems and stories. Some themes and characters in the myths we will never understand because poems have been lost and we did not live their culture.

Given the nature of Germanic societies, it would be unusual if themes of vengeance, spite, violence, treachery and oath breaking were not present in Norse mythology, as they are in myths of other societies. We can't sanitise the stories because they are distasteful to our modern sensibilities ( as Christians did), don't fit a syncretised view of how we would like Heathenry to be or claim that everything we disagree with is of Christian influence. Many of our sources contain Christian syncretism and a great deal of academic work has been done to analyze these sources, which I for one am more than happy to read.

Oddly enough, Odin was Tolkien's inspiration for Gandalf. Yet if Odin wandered the earth, but doesn't take interest in the people around him, one must wonder what he was doing? From the stories, his interaction with people only went as well as they treated him. Some were made kings for their hospitality, others driven mad and to their deaths..

It's not at all odd, Tolkien was a Professor of English literature who spoke many languages, Norse mythology and poetry are classics, many writers, musicians and composers have been influenced by them.

For a god who gave his eye for wisdom, and seeks it with furious passion, it's not far-fetched at all to think this would include all knowledges and stories

I have no idea what this means

You're right, it has. We're able to tell what a thunderstorm is, what meteorological forces cause them to occur, and even predict them with moderate success. Yet none of this knowledge negates or disproves a belief that it is Thor creating those events or visiting Midgard through them.

The lore negates and disproves that Thor creates or brings those things into existence. We know from the lore the gods were believed to be able to INFLUENCE the weather and Thor to have influence over rain, storms at sea, fertility, wind, crops, fight illness, called on to hallow runes and even responsible for the occasional curse. I would go with the gods MITIGATE and can CONTROL or have AUTHORITY over rather than MAKE, CREATE or personify natural events such as rain, tides, wind and thunderstorms.

Despite Thor's name having arisen from the Proto-Germanic root for thunder there is not enough evidence to indicate that Thor or words cognate with Thor were considered personifications of thunder. D. Taggart points out that the meanings of words change over time and an association with thunder may not have been relevant centuries after the name was coined, particularly into the Viking era, where the evidence of such an association is limited. Taggart also demonstrates that the sound of thunder was associated mostly with wagons and to a lesser extent with riding, rather than attributed uniquely to Thor of his weapon. As we know Thor is not the only deity in Norse mythology to have a wagon.
D. Taggart; How Thor Lost His Thunder, 2017

From the surviving corpus in relation to Thor and thunder and lightening:

Adam of Bremen in his description of Gamla Uppsala states, “Thor, they say, presides (or controls depending on the translation) over the air, which governs the thunder and lightning, the winds and rains, fair weather crops” http://self.gutenberg.org/article/whebn0000002552/adam of bremen

Saxo Grammaticus in Gesta Danorum wrote that in a fight between Thor and giants the giants were smashed by Thor’s thunderbolts. This also the only source we have that indicates that Thor used a thunderbolt as a weapon, as opposed to elsewhere in Gesta Danorum where Saxo has Thor using a club.

tp://sacred-texts.com/neu/saxo/index.htm

In the Norwegian Poem Haustlong Thor's travel to battle with Hrungnir is described as the moon rang beneath him, the sky burnt , heaven above burnt and the ground was destroyed by hail. Thunder and lightning implied but not explicitly stated and connected to Thor's ‘travel to battle’, the mode of which was his wagon.

Likewise In Thor's duel with Hrungnir, in Skáldskaparmál, when Thor traveled to the battle; the earth shook beneath him; and Thor became swollen with rage. The air flamed and the earth was beaten with storms as the goats pulled Thor along. In the entire Prose Edda, Snorri does not connect Thor directly to lightning or thunder but to the byproduct of the movement of his wagon. Given Snorri’s predilection for tidying up Norse mythology and for listing the mythological characteristics of the gods this is an interesting omission.

From folklore, H. A Guerber and retold by Dr C. Siegfried "in Southern Germany the people, fancying a brazen chariot alone inadequate to furnish all the noise they heard, declared it was loaded with copper kettles, which rattled and clashed, and therefore often called him, with disrespectful familiarity, the kettle-vendor." This familiarity may have not been disrespectful, but a sign of the fondness with which the common folk held the Thunder God. What makes the sound of thunder? A chariot full of kettles. Why would Thor fill his chariot with a bunch of kettles? To make the sound of thunder”
The Norse Mythology Blog | norsemyth.org: The Mighty Thor, Part One | Articles & Interviews on Myth & Religion

Surprisingly, for a thunder god, there are few kennings and heiti that connect Thor with thunder or lightning. We have Rymr - ‘roaring, crashing, noise’ and Hloridi - ‘loud rider’. After an extensive consideration of etymology of these two kennings Taggart concludes neither can connected to thunder or lightning. Taggart states, “ the image of thunder is never used as a kenning for Thor”: and “ connecting these kennings with thunder requires defying conventional scaldic praxis and applying external logic”.
(D. Taggart; How Thor Lost His Thunder).

So in relation to thunder and lightning, if you analyse the sources, we have Thor controls/ presides over aspects of weather, one source that states that Thor's may utilise thunderbolts to fight giants and that sound of thunder is associated with wagons. Given the narrative of Thor's travels to battle in the above sources I'm getting out of his way and hoping my thunderstone amulet works.

No, I'd say we have relationships with the gods because they have a hand in practically everything around us. That we are Heathens only means that we actively recognize them and worship them for that.

I don't understand what you are saying?
Four questions for you to ponder before I could attempt to understand what you mean:

1. How have they had a hand in everything around us?
2. What does ‘recognise’ mean to you in relation to Heathenry?
3. Because you ‘recognise’ the gods do you believe that implies reciprocation on their part?
4. Do you think being a Heathen is solely about 'recognising' the gods?

neither am I suggesting that one can just dial Odin up on the horn and say "Hey, I'm a Heathen; hook me up?"

Phew! That's a relief, you never know what people are going to say in these discussions.

And while I can't say with authority that the gods would reply to an offering of a $2.00 shooter, while that may seem a poor sacrifice to one person it might be all that someone has left to their name.

A $2.00 shooter! Notice how many Heathens these days offer bought alcohol? I guess the elder Heathens just ran down the shop and bought a beer for Odin…...no wait they didn't. What about just part of your meal or part of the first harvest of whatever you grow or a jar of homemade preserves, some home brew, something you have handmade ; something you've put effort and time into.

Well, first one would have to find an average individual in the lore at all. Given that they're tales of great people and heroes, that's likely a near-impossible task.

Exactly my point. So read a little wider than the Eddas.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Well, that's going to take a while to reply to. Be forewarned, a lot's probably going to get cut.

 

[Hildeburh]

Well, that's going to take a while to reply to. Be forewarned, a lot's probably going to get cut.

That's cool, we've been working in the scrub with patchy internet and I got really bored one long rainy weekend so decided to put an epic together.

 

[Joshua Pryce]

So how does this relate to the gods?

Far from never daring to bother a god because "we don't have a relationship", we ought to go out on that limb. In Heathenry, our deeds speak and our gods are not often known to be vengeful or spiteful. As the example given with several bands, if you make enough noise and make things that they enjoy and appreciate, the gods will extend a hand to you. Even if you're found to be annoying, if your offer is good enough and convenient enough, help may very well be given to you.

Our gods are not detached, judgmental beings. They move among us, and some - like Odin - quite enjoy taking part in human affairs. Gods like Thor, who even if he's not present for a "concert" still puts out thunderstorms for us to enjoy and worship him through. We all have relationships with the gods by our very calling of faith, and we all have the opportunity and the will to push that relationship past simply listening to CD's and going to concerts, and to start getting Instagram likes or autographs (to use the metaphor).

The best way to do that, though, is through effort. Make things for the gods, give offerings to the gods; live a life that is honorable, reputable, and interesting to get the attention of not only your community but the gods themselves. Build yourself to be someone they wouldn't mind helping here and there, knowing that your actions in their name will also bring them honor.

I see alot of problems with your theology. If Gods are not judgemental, then where does human capability to judge come from. If God isnt spiteful then how is sin dealt with and seen as bad as sin is according to the bible. What about vengeance. Where is the justice is there is no revenge. The bible addresses all of this, but your God would not.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I see alot of problems with your theology.

Hmm. Isn't that something.

If Gods are not judgemental, then where does human capability to judge come from.

From ourselves. We do not get our morality or our ability to judge and mete out justice from the gods.

If God isnt spiteful then how is sin dealt with

If by "sin" you mean crimes and offenses against the community, we handle that.

and seen as bad as sin is according to the bible.

Yeah, we don't care what the bible says here.

What about vengeance.

What about it?

The bible addresses all of this, but your God would not.

Which god. And again, we don't care what the bible says. Get off our lawn.