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ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

Pontius Pilate’s ring may have been discovered at ancient biblical fortress

Just another nail that keeps appearing again and again.

It's amazing, to me, how the information in the Gospels and letters are supported by facts that are discovered.

Roman historians mention Pontius Pilates, in the same way they mention the destruction of temple....Jesus not that much, just because they found a ring with his name it doesn't mean that all the narratives of the Bible can be historically proven, nor that what is narrated factually happened as narrated. There is a Red Sea, but it doesn't mean that Moses actually parted it, and there is a Galilee See but it doesn't mean that man, born of a woman and a spiritual entity, walked on it. It's hilarious how so many "true believers" with an unshakable faith need some kind of actual/tangible proof to justify and support their beliefs...they believe in Jesus because they have a "proof" ... so much for faith
 
Even the most skeptical of critics of the Bible acknowledge that the Bible is set in history and contains historical people and facts.

Right, however, mentioning those places (of which there is proof, ruins, works of art, and written registries) does not make all of the biblical narratives historically true nor accurate. Margaret Atwood's The Handmaid Tale mentions Cambridge, MA, Toronto, Canada, Mexico etc ...real places, however it doesn't mean that her novel is a narration of historically-proven facts
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
There's petroglyphs of domestic camels before the pyramids were built.
Several thousand years before Abraham.
Canaan to Sumer would have been a major trading route as it was in
Jesus' day.
The extermination/conquest of the Canaanites was a mixed affair. Some
cities appear to have been overthrown quite quickly ca 1300 BC but others
the cultural shift was much slower.
Yes, the Canaanites were not extinct. The bible didn't say that.
For the Canaanites here's the Bible verses which proves directly it did say that..

Book of Joshua. 10:40,

So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.


11:15.

As the Lord commanded Moses his servant, so did Moses command Joshua, and so did Joshua; he left nothing undone of all that the Lord commanded Moses.


It's pretty specific and direct if you ask me.

As far as camels go....

Domesticated Camels Came to Israel in 930 B.C., Centuries Later Than Bible Says

It's pretty much the bottom line on those matters.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
As far as camels go....
Domesticated Camels Came to Israel in 930 B.C., Centuries Later Than Bible Says
It's pretty much the bottom line on those matters.

It's the bottom line for you because you wish to believe that.
I don't wish to believe that, and I source information more widely.
This study was from one location.
Camels were domesticated at least a thousand years before Abraham.
They were widely used across the fertile crescent.
Camel trading caravans would have crossed the Levant for generations.
Abraham was from Sumer, not from some copper producing valley in Israel.

As for the destruction of the Canaanites. Sadly, yes, that happened.
You're saying you don't believe the camels, but you believe in the killing?
But... Israel did not destroy all of the Canaanites, and these Canaanites in
turn were the undoing of Israel, precisely as the bible said they would.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
What?

You mean to tell me you cannot tell a head from feet?

Or who your host is, at the dinner?

You wouldn’t know if the woman is Mary Magdalene or some other woman?

If those authors were eyewitnesses, and are in the same room with Jesus and their host, wouldn’t they know?

All you are doing is making excuses of the discrepancies in this episode in Bethany.

We are probably looking at different stories here.
In the crucifixion account we have one author saying both
thieves railed against Jesus. In a second one of them
repents. I am fine with that. That's what historians do, see
different or remember different accounts.
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
I would have to disagree with this statement.

It is the oldest manuscript found? Yes... but there is nothing to say it wasn't written when God told Moses "Write this down".
Ken, you could learn an very great deal from a book by quite a decent scholar, Richard Elliott Friedman, called "Who Wrote the Bible?" It really is well worth the effort.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Without going into this video, what is the thrust of their argument?
I recall people saying that camels were not domesticated in Abraham's
day, so the camel story in Genesis didn't happen. It added to other
claims made against the bible that caused many to lose their faith in
the book. Later it turned out that camels WERE domesticated in
Abraham's day (long before actually) but that didn't bring people back
to believing in the bible.
Ultimately, there is a body of facts AND METHODS OF ARGUMENT
about the bible - some for and some against. Your typical "expert" will
pick for "against" and your typical believer will pick the "for."
That's all it is. The issue will remain forever on a tight rope.


Oh, it's not a video it's an interview with William Denver:

William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject. In the following interview, Dever describes some of the most significant archeological finds related to the Hebrew Bible,

NOVA: Have biblical archeologists traditionally tried to find evidence that events in the Bible really happened?
William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

The fact is that archeology can never prove any of the theological suppositions of the Bible. Archeologists can often tell you what happened and when and where and how and even why. No archeologists can tell anyone what it means, and most of us don't try.

Yet many people want to know whether the events of the Bible are real, historic events.
We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean.

The Bible is didactic literature; it wants to teach, not just to describe. We try to make the Bible something it is not, and that's doing an injustice to the biblical writers. They were good historians, and they could tell it the way it was when they wanted to, but their objective was always something far beyond that.


and so forth........

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible


But the work that really established the position that scholarship now takes is by archeologist Thomas Thompson:
The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the Historical Abraham

"Completely dismantles the historic patriarchal narratives. His impeccable scholarship, his astounding mastery of the sources, and rigorous detailed examination of the archaeological claims makes this book one I will immediately take with me in case of a flood. And it still hasn't been refuted. I am well aware of the excellent work of William G. Dever, and his critique of the "minimalists" and his harping against Thompson, but it is his other books Dever has the most beef against. This one stands stellar and strong. I was absolutely bowled over by it. The second time through is even more astonishing."



In the field there is no debate, Moses and the Patriarchs are myth.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
The bible can be divided into four parts -
1 - God's direct dealing with His people as individuals.
2 - God's dealing with Israel.
3 - God's wisdom literature.
4 - God prophecies

The second is the history of the Jews - and it largely turns out to be true.

That isn't true, archeology admits the history of the Jews is very un-knowable.
Archeology of the Hebrew Bible

I mean even the Jerusalem Post ran an article admitting Exodus has no evidence?!

The Exodus: Does archaeology have a say?

"The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it.
The short answer is “no.” The whole subject of the Exodus is embarrassing to archaeologists. The Exodus is so fundamental to us and our Jewish sources that it is embarrassing that there is no evidence outside of the Bible to support it. So we prefer not to talk about it, and hate to be asked about it."




The wisdom of the bible is what our current adulterous and drug addled
generation is dispensing with - thinking the bible can be replaced by some
other moral agency which it clearly can't find.

Totally untrue, ALL of the new-age, love your brother, be nice to everyone, meditate, love is all there is is found in the Vedic scriptures 5000 years old.
There is nothing in Hindu spirituality that isn't biblical except the idea that if you don't follow the correct demi-god then you go to hell. Infatuation with "sin" was a Jewish thing. Including infatuation with killing lambs so their magic blood would appease god.
Which changed to just go to Temple everyday. Which then changed with the substitutionary magic atonement blood sacrifice of Jesus which luckily appeases god and gives everyone forgiveness? WTF?
Stone-age much?


The fourth is the prophecies. They foresaw the rise of a Hebrew nation,
tiny among the nations, blessed and forsaken, a gift to the world, exiled
amongst the nations because it did not know the "time of its visitation"
with the Messiah, and finally, coming back a second time to take Israel
back with the sword.

As I see it, on whatever level I care to look - there's a lot to be interested
in.

There are seriously 229 prophecies in the bible that did not pan out.
Picking out a few that might fit means you HAVE to also see how many failed. Because when you have prophecies some will come true.
This also happened with Nostradamus.

I'm sure you know Jesus said he would be back soon, in this generation and so forth.

So in that regard there isn't anything impressive?

Bible: Prophecy and Misquotes

God promises Abram and his descendants all of the land of Canaan. But both history and the bible (Acts 7:5 and Hebrews 11:13) show that God's promise to Abram was not fulfilled. 13:15, 15:18, 17:8, 28:13-14
God promises to make Isaac's descendents as numerous as "the stars of heaven", which, of course, never happened. The Jews have always been, and will always be, a small minority. 22:17-18, 26:4

God says that the Israelites will destroy all of the peoples they encounter. [URL='https://skepticsannotatedbible.com/topics/destroy-nations.html']But he was unable to keep his promise
. 7:1, 7:23-24, 31:3[/URL]
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
KenS said:

I would have to disagree with this statement.

It is the oldest manuscript found? Yes... but there is nothing to say it wasn't written when God told Moses "Write this down".

When there is nothing, zip, zero, nothing, nada, negatory nor one shred of evidence to support this it is difficult to present an 'argument from ignorance' that it was written by Moses.

You need to present a positive argument to support this, which you can not.
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
That isn't true, archeology admits the history of the Jews is very un-knowable.

I mean even the Jerusalem Post ran an article admitting Exodus has no evidence?!

Certainly there's little evidence to the Exodus. It was, after all, a trek
from Egypt to Canaan.
And for 38 of these years the Jews did no treking to speak of.

The Egyptians never recorded their defeats.
Nor do many scientists today.
No Muslim today is going to say he found some artifact made by a Jew.
But we do know that the Jews burst upon Canaan in the 1300 or 1400's
quite suddenly.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
You know who they are
Matthew
Mark
Luke
John
Paul
Peter
James - the brother of Jesus.


The original Greek in all 4 gospels (Euangélion katà Maththaîon;[)
is the Greek way authors then said "as told to me by".

This is confirmed by Ph.D biblical historian Richard Carrier but even Wiki now recognizes it:

"The anonymous author was probably a male Jew, standing on the margin between traditional and non-traditional Jewish values, and familiar with technical legal aspects of scripture being debated in his time."

Paul's original letter only EVER mentions the resurrected Jesus being known through scripture OR revelation (hallucination)

The later Acts is considered a forgery by the field and books like Pichard Purvoe's Acts as Historical Fiction have been accepted as fact.

There is currently debate on weather "brother" meant "brother in the Lord" vs actual brother.
The evidence supports "brother in the Lord" because the original word in Greek, every time it was used in that way it meant "lord brother"
Christians just won't give and insist on saying "well he meant actual brother" but the evidence does not point that way.
In later Acts it was just a church forgery making Paul into a completely different character.

We also know that all gospels are just re-writes of Mark which is a re-write of Moses and Elija with the savior demi-god myths tacked on.


So these sources do not confirm any historical Jesus at all.
They are highly doubted except for actual fundamentalists.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Where as in Greek, Roman, Native Religion, Aboriginal, Maori reglions etc
there is no evidence.
Fact is the bible MAKES AN HISTORIC CLAIM.
And it fails miserably.
The OT is conclusively shown to be myth in the field of historicity.
Church-people can be all like "yay it's real" but scholarship says no chance.


The Historicity of the Patriarchal Narratives: The Quest for the Historical Abraham

by
Thomas L. Thompson
"Completely dismantles the historic patriarchal narratives. His impeccable scholarship, his astounding mastery of the sources, and rigorous detailed examination of the archaeological claims makes this book one I will immediately take with me in case of a flood. And it still hasn't been refuted. I am well aware of the excellent work of William G. Dever, and his critique of the "minimalists" and his harping against Thompson, but it is his other books Dever has the most beef against. This one stands stellar and strong. I was absolutely bowled over by it. The second time through is even more astonishing."


"Having stated, on page 1 of the Introduction of his book, the existing paradigm as it was in the early 1970s viz ""Nearly all [authors] accept the general claim that the historicity of the biblical traditions about the patriarchs has been substantiated by the archaeological and historical research of the last half-century" - Thompson then proceeds chapter by chapter to methodically and in great detail and with intricate scholarship to demolish that paradigm.
By the end of the book nothing remains of the assertion that the patriarchs actually existed as historical figures.
They are, as Thompson shows [and many other scholars since] part of a literary tradition written as expressions of religious faith, neither history nor ever intended to be so.
Thompson so conclusively demonstrated in this classic paradigm changing book that not only did archaeological research not substantiate the patriarchal stories, as described by apologists who allowed their faith to distort their research and conclusions, but that archaeology had actually refuted such claims.
So convincing and credible was his refuting of the old ideas that his PhD adviser, one Cardinal Ratzinger later pope Benedict, refused to ratify his PhD, from which this book is adapted, and Thompson was cast into an academic wilderness for many years until scholarship quite literally caught up.

This is a very important book, it swept away the accumulated dust of centuries and opened up a new, realistic, understanding of the past it described, an understanding that has thoroughly replaced the anachronism of the 'general claim' referred to in the opening line of the review"
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
Certainly there's little evidence to the Exodus. It was, after all, a trek
from Egypt to Canaan.
And for 38 of these years the Jews did no treking to speak of.

The Egyptians never recorded their defeats.
Nor do many scientists today.
No Muslim today is going to say he found some artifact made by a Jew.
But we do know that the Jews burst upon Canaan in the 1300 or 1400's
quite suddenly.


Well, I'm going by biblical archeologists. Doesn't this pretty much mean we really don't know Jewish history well?

If you read the entire interview, we have evidence that the majority of Israelites were polytheistic and the monotheistic people were a small eliteist minority. So their real history has been skewed by using the OT as history.


William Dever, Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, has investigated the archeology of the ancient Near East for more than 30 years and authored almost as many books on the subject. In the following interview, Dever describes some of the most significant archeological finds related to the Hebrew Bible,

William Dever: From the beginnings of what we call biblical archeology, perhaps 150 years ago, scholars, mostly western scholars, have attempted to use archeological data to prove the Bible. And for a long time it was thought to work. [William Foxwell] Albright, the great father of our discipline, often spoke of the "archeological revolution." Well, the revolution has come but not in the way that Albright thought. The truth of the matter today is that archeology raises more questions about the historicity of the Hebrew Bible and even the New Testament than it provides answers, and that's very disturbing to some people.

The fact is that archeology can never prove any of the theological suppositions of the Bible. Archeologists can often tell you what happened and when and where and how and even why. No archeologists can tell anyone what it means, and most of us don't try.
We want to make the Bible history. Many people think it has to be history or nothing. But there is no word for history in the Hebrew Bible. In other words, what did the biblical writers think they were doing? Writing objective history? No. That's a modern discipline. They were telling stories. They wanted you to know what these purported events mean.

Archeology of the Hebrew Bible
 

PruePhillip

Well-Known Member
This is confirmed by Ph.D biblical historian Richard Carrier but even Wiki now recognizes it:

The later Acts is considered a forgery by the field and books like Pichard Purvoe's Acts as Historical Fiction have been accepted as fact.

There is currently debate on weather "brother" meant "brother in the Lord" vs actual brother.

We also know that all gospels are just re-writes of Mark which is a re-write of Moses and Elija with the savior demi-god myths tacked on.

Wiki can't even recognize that camels were domesticated in the early bronze age.
They were prepared to make some changes however. Why? Because a late date
for domestic camels has a religious connotation.
Makes no difference who YOU chose to think wrote them. The characters in the
Gospels bears a grainy resemblance to the style of the authors, particularly John.
There's lot of non-Mark stuff in the Gospels.
And if it wasn't Matt, Mark, Luke and John then it could have been Jim, Jack, Joe
and Josh. We still wind up with seven authors (oops, just remember Hebrews -
unknown author)
James was the brothers of Jesus. Period. He was the second eldest if I recall,
the one who Jesus appeared to after the crucifixion. He came the head of the
Jerusalem church.

As an aside. Do what I do. I read BOTH SIDES OF THE ARGUMENT. That way
I encounter material the other side won't acknowledge. I read the careful rebuttal
of the book of Daniel by "scholars" and then I read Jewish and Christian comments
and I found stuff the "scholars" simply ignored.
 
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