ONCE AGAIN! Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology.

[ecco]

ecco previously said: ↑​

So, which prediction came true?

Of the two sets, the Redeemer must come true first.
The second, when the Jews will mourn for the one
they "pierced" is termed the Second Coming.
Zechariah talks about these two appearances, ie
the reigning king who had before come to them lowly
and riding upon a donkey.

I've asked, several times:
So, which prediction came true?

By your answers, it's obvious that none came true.

This conversation started back with post # 268 where you wrote:

What is deeply impressive about the bible is the number of people who wrote of the Messiah before he even arrived.

Weeks later we find that what you referred to as "deeply impressive" is non-existent.

 

[ecco]

I thought that would be obvious to a blind man.

My point is, that the prophecy of the coming of the Lord and the establishing of his Kingdom on earth, is yet to occur in the not to soon foreseeable future.

But future events really have nothing to do with the theme of this thread

So, there was really no point to your lengthy post #648.

 

[The Anointed]

So, there was really no point to your lengthy post #648.

People who write ignorant posts such as this, "Don't try to duck and dodge. The predicted Messiah never appeared. To say that maybe someday he will is just wishful thinking." needed to be shown that the predicted Messiah who will wage war against those Nations who attack his chosen people, is yet to come.

 

[gnostic]

I thought that would be obvious to a blind man.

My point is, that the prophecy of the coming of the Lord and the establishing of his Kingdom on earth, is yet to occur in the not to soon foreseeable future.

But future events really have nothing to do with the theme of this thread which is, " Facts in the Bible is supported by archaeology." So I offer the following in support of the thread: "Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

If Josephus the historian is correct and the exodus of the Shepherd Kings did occur in 1567 BC, and Jericho was destroyed after they had wandered in the desert for 40 years, then according to the biblical account, the destruction of Jericho would have occurred around 1527 BC. 1567-40=1527.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

This doesn’t help the Bible in any way.

In the Bible timeline, the construction of Pithom and Rameses during the time of before and during Moses’ birth, and the fall of Jericho shortly after Moses’ death with Joshua taking over the leadership.

The problem here, is the Exodus and (Book of) Joshua, give no details as to who was ruling Egypt at the time of Moses’ birth (Exodus 1), his leading Israelites out of Egypt (Exodus 12) to Moses receiving the stone tablets 80 years later, and his death 40 years later (Deuteronomy). Without these names of Egyptian kings, it become a guessing game.

We also have no names of any rulers of the Canaanite city-states or kingdoms in which Joshua’s army was said to conquered this city or that, in which we can verify with historical records of that time.

And if you managed to add all the reigns, from the fall of Jerusalem in late 6th century BCE (587/586 BCE), to the time of King Solomon, using 1 & 2 Kings, in 1 Kings 6:1, when Solomon started building his temple in his 4th year of his reign, you would get the number of years of when Moses supposedly led his people out of Egypt: 480 years.

6 In the four hundred eightieth year after the Israelites came out of the land of Egypt, in the fourth year of Solomon’s reign over Israel, in the month of Ziv, which is the second month, he began to build the house of the Lord.

Based on the line of the kings of Judah (from 1 & 2 Kings), Solomon supposedly ruled for 40 years, which would mean Solomon’s reign from 970 to 931 BCE, meaning his 4th year would be 967 BCE.

So if we to add 480 years (1 Kings 6:1) to 967 BCE, you will get the time of exodus (Exodus 12:37-41) at 1447 BCE, when Moses was aged 80 (Exodus 7:7).

7 Moses was eighty years old and Aaron eighty-three when they spoke to Pharaoh.

37 The Israelites journeyed from Rameses to Succoth, about six hundred thousand men on foot, besides children.

This would mean that Moses was born 1527 BCE and his death at age 120 in 1407 BCE.

If you were to accept Kathleen Kenyon's date of 1562 BCE, then that mean Jericho's destruction OCCURRED 35 YEARS BEFORE MOSES WAS BORN! (eg 1527 BCE,of Moses' birth).

So if Moses' death occurred in 1407 BCE, and Joshua leading the destruction of Jericho afterward, then Kenyon's date don't match with the Biblical Jericho at all, because there is a gap of 155 years between archaeology of Jericho and that of Joshua's Jericho.

The archaeology of Jericho's destruction don't match with Joshua's Jericho, because the destruction in Joshua 6.

And for your information, Kenyon never claimed that her date match with Joshua 6, indicated it occurred after Moses' death. It was another archaeologist, John Garstang who linked the destruction to the bible (in the 1930s), not Kathleen Kenyon.

Kenyon's date actually debunked Garstang's claim and any biblical scholar's claims regarding to the biblical Jericho and the real Jericho destruction.

Second, we know that Rameses or more precisely Pi-Ramesses from historical records that this city didn't exist in the 16th century.

The Exodus mentioned Rameses, twice, once before Moses was born in Exodus 1:11, and again when the Israelites were leaving Egypt 12:37 (which I have already quoted).

But we know from Egyptian history that Pi-Ramesses (biblical Rameses) was built by the 3rd king of the 19th dynasty (1292 - 1189 BCE), and it was named after Ramesses II, reign 1279 to 1213 BCE.

Based on the bible, 1527 BCE would have been the time of Ahmose I (reign 1549 - 1524 BCE), the 1st king of the 18th dynasty. Ahmose completed the campaign to drive out the Hyksos from Egypt, which started in the 17th dynasty by Kamose from Thebes. Kamose and Ahmose I were actually brothers.

Pi-Ramesses has been identified as today's Qantir and confirmed that it was built in 13th century, hence the early 19th dynasty.

The construction of Pi-Ramesses (13th century BCE) occurred a couple of centuries after Jericho's destruction (1562 BCE). Based on Exodus 1 & 12 say about Rameses, the archaeological Pi-Ramesses should be before the destruction of Jericho, but that's not the case.

Which mean, @The Anointed, you are not piecing together the archaeology and the bible as logical as you believe you are doing, which is Kenyon's Jericho debunk the biblical myth of Joshua's Jericho. It was Garstag who linked Jericho (its destruction) to the same one as the bible, not Kenyon.

As to Josephus' equating the Hyksos to his "Shepherd Kings", that has been long ago debunked. Josephus is not archaeologist, nor was he a historian of Egyptian history. Josephus has based his Shepherd Kings on his "interpretation" of Manetho's work on Egyptian history, but Josephus' interpretation is pure speculation, which is either pure fantasy on his part or merely a propaganda to link "Israel" to Egypt in some ways.

Josephus' work on history is only reliable for a couple of centuries, but beyond that, not so good at history.

 

[osgart]

So where is the historical account of Jesus of Nazareth?

Was there a Jesus who was executed on a cross?

How would you find out such information?

 

[PruePhillip]

ecco previously said: ↑​

So, which prediction came true?


I've asked, several times:
So, which prediction came true?

By your answers, it's obvious that none came true.

This conversation started back with post # 268 where you wrote:


Weeks later we find that what you referred to as "deeply impressive" is non-existent.

Sorry, what came true is the Messianic prophecy of the Redeemer.
People get confused when reading of the Messiah - is he a king or
is he a "lowly man of sorrow" who suffers and dies for his people
and is believed upon by the Gentiles? This one who is the redeemer
is Jesus.

 

[PruePhillip]

So where is the historical account of Jesus of Nazareth?

Was there a Jesus who was executed on a cross?

How would you find out such information?

It's in the bible. Seven or eight authors - Paul, Peter,
James, John, Matthew, Luke and Mark. Plus the
unknown author who wrote the book of Hebrews.

 

[The Anointed]

in response to ozgart.

Exodus 12:40-41 New International Version (NIV) 40 Now the length of time the Israelite people lived in Egypt was 430 years. 41 At the end of the 430 years, to the very day, all the Lord ’s divisions left Egypt.

From the Septuagint, Exodus 12: 40-41; “And the sojourning of the children of Israel, while they sojourned in Egypt and the land of Chanaan, was 430 years.

God’s first promise/covenant with Abraham, was when he told him to leave his father and travel to the land of Canaan, which land he would give to him.

Galatians 3: 17; “What I mean is that God made a covenant with Abraham and promised to keep it: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise.”

So Paul says there was a period of 430 years from the time that God made his promise to Abraham, to the law given by the 80 year old Moses..

The Israelites left Egypt 430 years after Abraham entered the land of Canaan at the age of 75.

25 years after Abraham entered Egypt, Isaac was born. When Isaac was 60, his son Jacob was born, and Jacob entered Egypt with his family when he was 130.

25+60+130=215, which means that the Israelites were in Egypt for only 215 years and left Egypt 430 years after God made his promise to Abraham.

Add 215 years to the date that you believed Israel departed Egypt, from THE CITY OF RAMESES.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

Genesis 41: After Joseph had revealed to the king that his dreams were a prophecy telling of a seven year period of plenty, which would be followed by a seven year period of severe drought, Joseph is made Governor of all Egypt, and all Egyptians were commanded by the King to obey him. The King removed his royal ring with its engraved seal and put it on the finger of Joseph.

He was given the second royal chariot and a guard of honour who went ahead of him crying out, “Make way, make way.” And the King said: I am King, but no one in all of Egypt shall so much as lift a hand or a foot without Joseph’s permission. He gave Joseph an Egyptian wife, Asenath, the daughter of the High priest of Heliopolis, who prophesied that if ever the bones of Joseph left Egypt, the LIGHT of Egypt would go with him. For that reason, a permanent guard was set up to keep watch over the tomb of Joseph, in order that no one could remove the mummified body of Joseph.

During the seven years of plenty, Joseph gathered a percentage of the Egyptian grain crop as a tax, which was stored in silos throughout Egypt. In the early stages of the great seven-year drought, the Egyptians had to buy their grain from Joseph, when their money had all gone, they traded their possessions and livestock, after which, they were forced to sign their land over for grain in order to survive.

Genesis 47: 20-21. Joseph bought all the land of Egypt for the king. Every Egyptian was forced to sell their land, because the famine was so severe; Joseph made slaves of all the people from one end of Egypt to the other, without striking a blow.

The Hyksos were described as bowmen and cavalrymen wearing the cloaks of many colors, much like the cloak worn by Joseph the son of Israel and the first of the Hykos kings, of who it is said in Genesis 50: 23; that he lived to receive the children of Machir the son of Manasseh into the family. And in Judges 5: 14, it is written that the commanders of the army came down from Machir, of who it is said in Joshua 17: 1; that Machir was the first born son of Manasseh, the first born of Joseph, and that he was a military hero in Egypt, and the father of young Gilead.

After the Exodus of the shepherd kings, and the removal of the mummified remains of Joseph, which were to be taken to Shechem and buried there in the land of Israel as per Joseph’s last wish, the Egyptian Guards would have been removed, and any grave robbers who were later confronted with the empty tomb of Joseph, would have left empty handed.

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

1562 (minus 38 years) [1562-38=1524 BC.] this would mean that Jericho fell somewhere between 1562 and 1524 BC, close enough to the 40 years after Josephus’ date for the Exodus in 1567. [1567-40=1527 BC]

 

[lukethethird]

So where is the historical account of Jesus of Nazareth?

Was there a Jesus who was executed on a cross?

How would you find out such information?

Ask a Christian.

 

[ecco]

ecco previously...
I'm confused by your comments. First you write...
What is deeply impressive about the bible is the number of people who wrote of the Messiah before he even arrived.

Then you state that (almost) no one accepted Jesus as the Messiah.

So you are impressed by people predictively writing about a Messiah who did not appear. Those people and their religious descendants are still waiting for a Messiah, so their predictions never came to pass. Yet you are deeply impressed by their predictions.

People who write ignorant posts such as this, "Don't try to duck and dodge. The predicted Messiah never appeared. To say that maybe someday he will is just wishful thinking." needed to be shown that the predicted Messiah who will wage war against those Nations who attack his chosen people, is yet to come.

Ignorant posts? Perhaps you are not aware that ignorant means "lacking knowledge or awareness". Neither are the case in terms of my comments in our conversation. I am quite aware of the ridiculousness of the comments you made.

Let's recap - you wrote...

What is deeply impressive about the bible is the number of people who wrote of the Messiah before he even arrived.
​

In subsequent posts, you stated that the people who wrote the predictions and their descendants believe the "Messiah, is yet to come".

By your own admission, you are deeply impressed by predictions of events that have not come to pass. I cannot understand how anyone can be impressed with predictions that have never come to pass. To hope that the predictions will somehow, someday come to pass is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Please just explain why failed predictions impress you. Any and all comments that do not address this are ducking and dodging.

 

[PruePhillip]

Ignorant posts? Perhaps you are not aware that ignorant means "lacking knowledge or awareness". Neither are the case in terms of my comments in our conversation. I am quite aware of the ridiculousness of the comments you made.

Let's recap - you wrote...

What is deeply impressive about the bible is the number of people who wrote of the Messiah before he even arrived.
​

In subsequent posts, you stated that the people who wrote the predictions and their descendants believe the "Messiah, is yet to come".

By your own admission, you are deeply impressed by predictions of events that have not come to pass. I cannot understand how anyone can be impressed with predictions that have never come to pass. To hope that the predictions will somehow, someday come to pass is nothing more than wishful thinking.

Please just explain why failed predictions impress you. Any and all comments that do not address this are ducking and dodging.

Because there are TWO predictions.
1 - Redeemer
2 - Reigning King
They are one, as Zechariah points out.
And they, like all things of God, are given to us as physical, historical metaphors
(ie lamb of God, promise land, chosen people etc..) The Redeemer and King are
represented in (amongst other things) in King David - rejected and reigning King.
In fact David himself in Psalm 22 and 69 give precise prophecy of the Messiah as
one who is rejected even of his own siblings, and suffers on the cross.

 

[gnostic]

Add 215 years to the date that you believed Israel departed Egypt, from THE CITY OF RAMESES.

From ‘The World Book Dictionary,’ (Hyksos) “A succession of six foreign rulers of Egypt—from about 1730 B.C. to about 1570 B.C; Shepherd Kings.” --- And from the Encyclopedia Britannica, ‘Hyksos’, invaders who were also called the Shepherd Kings, who in the time of “King Tutimaios” entered Egypt and took possession of it without striking a blow and it is said here that Josephus the historian, identifies them with the Israelites and that their reign ended in 1567 B.C.

The word Hyksos (Ὑκσώς) doesn’t mean “shepherd kings”, in Greek, The Anointed. Hyksos was derived from Egyptian name heqau khaswet, which means “kings of foreign lands”; there is no “shepherd” in this name.

Josephus misinterpreted the work of Manetho, a 3rd century BCE Egyptian-Greek priest and historian, who wrote Aegyptiaca in Greek.

 

[gnostic]

Kathleen Kenyon, a most respected archaeologist dug at Jericho over the seasons between 1952 to 1958, her results were confirmed in 1995 by radiocarbon tests, which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (Plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%.

The radiocarbon tests which dated the destruction of Jericho to 1562 BC (plus/minus 38 years) with a certainty of 95%, confirm that the biblical date of 1527 BC for the destruction, agrees with Kathleen Kenyon’s findings.

No, the date of 1527 BCE, is the date of Moses’ birth, not the date of destruction of Jericho.

I have already posted a reply to you, @The Anointed, in post 664, in regarding to Jericho, but apparently you didn’t learn anything from my reply.

If Solomon does exist and ruled for 40 years, then his 4th year of his reign, would be about 967 BCE, and the verse 1 Kings 6:1, would place Moses’ Exodus at 480 years before Solomon’s building programme, hence:

967 BCE (Solomon’s 4th year) + 480 years (1 Kings 6:1) = 1447 BCE (exodus from Rameses)​

Joshua 6 destruction of Jericho supposedly took place AFTER Moses’ death, when Joshua succeeded Moses as leader, 40 years after the exodus from Rameses (Egyptian Pi-Ramesses), Exodus 12:37, so the calculation of Moses’ death is:

1447 BCE - 40 years (wandering) = 1407 BCE (Moses’ death & possibly Jericho’s fall)​

Moses’ birth supposedly occurred 80 years prior to the exodus (Exodus 7:7), so the calculation of Moses’ birth is:

1447 BCE + 80 years = 1527 BCE (Moses’ birth)​

Your “1527 BCE” date, actually referred to the biblical birth of Moses, not the biblical “Battle of Jericho”, which supposedly took place 1407 or 1406 BCE, AFTER MOSES’ DEATH.

You have mixed up the dates, The Anointed.

The gap between archaeology of Jericho’s destruction (1562 BCE) and Joshua’s Jericho (1407 BCE) is 155 years, not 35 or 38 years as you claimed:

1562 BCE - 1407 BCE = 155 years​

Get numbers corrected, The Anointed. You haven’t confirmed anything with your poor maths and even poorer biblical scholarship.

 

[ecco]

In fact David himself in Psalm 22 and 69 give precise prophecy of the Messiah as
one who is rejected even of his own siblings, and suffers on the cross.

Would you care to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah"?

 

[gnostic]

@The Anointed

Josephus is alright with history of his time and that of Herod and Maccabees, but his history relating to the Hyksos as the Shepherd Kings have long since been debunked.

 

[PruePhillip]

Would you care to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah"?

Yes, David spoke of the suffering Messiah.
Perhaps he had these visions during his own sufferings,
but he certainly wasn't speaking of himself. I repeat, David
clearly was not writing of himself.


This one who would be rejected even of his own siblings,
have his hands and feet pierced, be offered vinegar and
gall to drink, be forsaken of God, looking back on his
suffering later, and those who would preach that he has
done this for us. That's Jesus.

You can read it on-line if you don't have a bible.

 

[ecco]

ecco said: ↑​

Would you care to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah"?

Yes, David spoke of the suffering Messiah.
Perhaps he had these visions during his own sufferings,
but he certainly wasn't speaking of himself. I repeat, David
clearly was not writing of himself.


This one who would be rejected even of his own siblings,
have his hands and feet pierced, be offered vinegar and
gall to drink, be forsaken of God, looking back on his
suffering later, and those who would preach that he has
done this for us. That's Jesus.

You can read it on-line if you don't have a bible.

Don't try to cop out by telling me to look anything up. It's an argument that you are trying to make. I asked you to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah". Let me be more clear. Show the verses that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah". It seems you can't do that.

 

[PruePhillip]

ecco said: ↑​

Would you care to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah"?



Don't try to cop out by telling me to look anything up. It's an argument that you are trying to make. I asked you to show those parts that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah". Let me be more clear. Show the verses that show a "precise prophecy of the Messiah". It seems you can't do that.

Who is the figure David is speaking of in Psalm 22?
Who is the figure Isaiah 53 is speaking of?

Here is what these two writers say of the Messiah in
these two chapters.

born of a woman
despised and rejected
not a good looking man
disbelieved by his siblings
people didn't want to know him
believed upon by those to whom it is revealed
an unblemished life
a life offered for His people
he bore our sufferings
taken from prison and from judgment
divided his garments
like a lamb he opened not his mouth
crucified (pierced hands and feet)
his bones are out of joint
offered vinegar and gall
His bones protrude, his tongue sticks to his mouth
"My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"
"He trusts in the Lord, let him save him"
enemies surround him
buried in a rich man's grave
numbered with the sinners
He will see the fruits of his suffering in the life of his people
those who seek God will love him
he will rule over the nations

and lastly Psalm 22:30,31
"Posterity will serve him;
future generations will be told about the Lord.
They will proclaim his righteousness,
declaring to a people not yet born.
He has done it!"

 

[Looncall]

It's in the bible. Seven or eight authors - Paul, Peter,
James, John, Matthew, Luke and Mark. Plus the
unknown author who wrote the book of Hebrews.

But most of these were cribbed from others and all cobbled together long after the events they purport to describe. Just a scam.

 

[PruePhillip]

But most of these were cribbed from others and all cobbled together long after the events they purport to describe. Just a scam.

Cribbed from others? You have any trouble believing an African general
took an army over the Alps, complete with elephants, and invaded Rome?
Two authors. I find that story too fantastic, and it appears the authors
did a bit of cribbing themselves.
I am reading the Greek historian Thucydides as I speak, and I wonder how
much of it was cribbed. He himself admitted he made up speeches for
instance. Guess we can take most ancient history with a grain of salt.