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Once again, the BoM...

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I don't think its helpful to occlude the facts: there is a reliable archaeology that the civilizations accounted for in the Bible actually existed. Does the archaeology substantiate the Biblical tales? Many of them, no, and some of them are flatly contradicted. Figures like the Patriarchs vanish into the mists of history and while many speculate that there was some kind of "Exodus-event", it certainly acquired legendary proportions.

But other keys events we are certain of: the Babylonian Exile, the historical existence of the Prophets, the Temple's reconstruction, the existence of a historical Jesus...
Yes, but in a way, that's similar to the Book of Mormon: they both refer to at least some undoubtedly real places - the first part of the BoM takes place in Israel and Arabia.

From there, though, things have less support, but we see parallels in the Bible: outside of their respective texts in which the stories appear, there's no evidence for the voyage of Lehi and family from the Old World to the New World, just as there's no evidence for (and significant evidence against) the Exodus of Moses and his followers from Egypt to Canaan. There's no evidence for the destruction of Zarahemla or even its existence, but there's no evidence for the destruction of Sodom... or even its existence.

This does not seem to me to be an immediate parallel to the state that the BOM finds itself in. Do students taking history, for example, learn of a mysterious civilization on North American soil in which the events of the BOM are purported to have taken place? Is even the historical context to be taken on faith?
To play Devil's Advocate (or should that be Mormon's Advocate?) for a moment, the Americas are chock full of evidence for mysterious ancient civilizations, but without so much known about them to conclusively say whether or not a given event described in the BoM might have happened within one of them.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Tom, I don't believe you are picking a fight. You are however asking for some kind of proof of religion. Let's face it, being a former Pagan, I was convinced that the super natural was real, but providing proof positive TO YOU is not going to happen.

Providing proof positive to an Atheist that Christianity is the real deal is going to fail miserably as well.

Why would we put the burden of proof on our Mormon friends? Seriously Tom, we all have our our private moments that convince us personally in our own beliefs. No one should have to explain faith to you.

Let me ask you one question, what faith has proof positive?
 

Jordan St. Francis

Well-Known Member
Penguin,

My point is that we have a verifiable context in which the salvation history of Israel, not merely its history, is said to take place, and yes, which one must take on faith. All the bare bones of that history exist in empirical fashion. I know you understand the Exodus to never have happened, but there is also a significant number of scholars, such as Karen Armstrong (no friend of Christians), who propose an event that was more significant in the life of a small group of proto-Hebrew slaves than those of their Egyptian overlords, and yet was enough to serve as the kernel of the emerging Hebrew identity. Over much development and redaction, of course. Likewise, I have read scholarly proposals for a King David, and a far less jewelled and wealthy Solomon.

It is the case that, for Israel, we have a record of a people practicing the Semitic, Abrahamic faith, who followed migration patterns which lay the basis of the legendary stories of Joshua, over powering the native inhabitants of Canaan, whose real kings or priests did leave the city of Jerusalem with two destroyed temples, Hezekiah's wall, whose elites were carted off to Babylon, whose royal courts were pestered by an irritating prophetic zeal. On the whole, there is concrete evidence for the essential dialogue that makes up the Hebrew Scriptures- the constant call, be it in the mouth of prophets and spirituals, to maintain a distinctive Israel faithful to its percieved vocation, whose purpose is to serve as a purified priestly people of a single God. In the end, these forces largely suceeded and Israel mostly rooted its pagan practices from its lands, cults and scriptures.

Again, as I stated before, I believe that Israel remembered its history according to its theological significance- that is to say Israel's sacred history can only be accessed by faith. Its secular history, however, is quite open to the other senses, and without this secular history there could be no sacred history, not entierly dissimilar to the fact that, without the bread and wine, there could be no sacramental Body and Blood in the Mass.

I don't understand such a basic skeleton to exist for the claims put forward by the BOM- which proposes a Semitic civilizaion on North American soil which was later Christianized by the same gospel which radically transformed Europe, Asia minor and Africa. Yet, besides the works of a few LDS apologists, there is no trace of such a people.
 
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*Paul*

Jesus loves you
To be fair Tom they don't usually try to convince you that it's true by pointing to any evidence but rather to pray about it and see if God will tell you supernaturally that it's true. At least that's all the American missionaries use to try to convince me.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
To be fair Tom they don't usually try to convince you that it's true by pointing to any evidence but rather to pray about it and see if God will tell you supernaturally that it's true. At least that's all the American missionaries use to try to convince me.
You seem to have a real problem with believing that the Holy Ghost can reveal truth to the sincere mind and heart. That's how Peter came to know that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the Living God. Jesus told Thomas that he was blessed to be able to recognize that he was standing in the presence of the risen Savior, but then He added that those who could believe without physical evidence were even more blessed. Unless you feel that the Holy Ghost would mislead you and give you a false answer to your question, there is no reason not to trust Him. Of course, anyone wanting to know the truth about the Book of Mormon would have to pray about it with an open mind and not with the preconceived idea that it's a fraudulent record. The evidence is all well and good -- and there is evidence to support the book's claims -- but its not what converts. The Holy Ghost is what converts.
 
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