One perspective on the creation

[ManSinha]

As I have often remarked I like to peruse the writings of Rami Sivan - a Mimamsa (critical reflection) priest - it is branch of Vedanta in Sanatan Dharma - I found this today and thought to post it here for comments and reflection

FWIW IMO the guy is deeply pragmatic and extremely knowledgeable

Comments from both those identifying as theists and also from those identifying as atheists would be most welcome

Source

The purpose of creation is LILA - the Play of the Divine. God, being perfect and self-fulfilled cannot possibly have a reason or purpose for creation. If He/She/It does have purpose then the Divine perfection is compromised. Creation of something is only required if that thing is lacking in oneself. Some would say that God created the Universe for self-glorification and so that he could be adored by humankind - what does this say about his lack of self-esteem?

The other theories of why an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God would create an imperfect universe only has meaning in a geocentric universe - where mankind is the centre of creation. In a Hubble perspective (Home) they are meaningless.

The earth is the size of a grain of sand on all the combined beaches of the world! Why on earth would the Divine Source of this unbelievably and inconceivably vast universe require earthlings who are only 100,000 years in existence on a temporary grain of sand want, need or require our, worship, adoration and validation?

So Hinduism concludes that there is only one possible reason for the existence of the Universe - Divine Play. When one dances or plays - there is no purpose, goal or aim to be achieved there is just self-satisfaction, self-pleasure. This is illustrated by the dance of Lord Shiva as naṭarāja - the dance of creation, preservation and destruction - it has its similitude in the dance of the atom.

The vast cosmos is dancing and vibrating to the tune of the cosmic drum (ḍamaru).

The Veda says:–

pūrṇam adaḥ pūrṇam idaṁ pūrṇāt pūrṇam udacyate |
pūrṇasya pūrṇamādāya pūrṇamevāvaśiṣyate ||

Om! That is complete (Brahman/God), and this (universe) is complete.
The complete proceeds from the complete.
(Then) taking the complete (universe) from the complete (Brahman),
the complete (Brahman) alone remains.

 

[Thief]

Why on earth would the Divine Source of this unbelievably and inconceivably vast universe require earthlings who are only 100,000 years in existence on a temporary grain of sand want, need or require our, worship, adoration and validation?

when He said......I AM!.....only His Echo responded

He must have become tired of talking to Himself

 

[sun rise]

The purpose of creation is LILA - the Play of the Divine.

I'm familiar with this from the works of Meher Baba:

It was a day for light talk and it seemed most appropriate that Baba touched on the subject of God's sense of humor. He stated that Creation is God's Lila (Divine Sport) and that it is sustained by His sense of humor. He also explained that the expression of God's humor varies with the scope and range of work that is ordained and accomplished in each Advent through the Avatar, Sadgurus, saints and masts. In fact, God's sense of humor is so pervasive that there is not a person who is totally devoid of it.
...
"Likewise, the strife between the Kauravas and the Pandavas and the consequent bloodshed was not only due to the Divine sense of humor in Krishna, but its height was reached when Krishna himself died through an arrow that accidentally struck one of his legs from the bow of an ordinary hunter who never had any intention of harming the Rangila (playful) Avatar in any way.

"The kind-hearted Jesus knew very well that his nearest disciple would betray him and thus lead to his crucifixion; but, because of the Divine sense of humor, Christ could not help getting himself crucified, although the world rightly continues to look upon him as the Savior of humanity.

"The funniest Divine sense of humor was on the part of Buddha when he simply died of simple dysentery, though his "medicine" for the spiritual beemaries (illnesses) of mankind holds the field to this day.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

And that's a perspective I disagree with. I've explored both Paganism and Hinduism and they both share this impersonal mechanistic view of the universe that we can see in teachings like reincarnation and karma (there's similar concepts in just about every Indo-European pre-Christian religion, too). I really did believe in Hellenismos and Kalikua Shaktism for a time but rejected them both because I found they didn't meet my spiritual needs. Ultimately it led me to a sense of nihilism when I took them to their logical conclusions.

I connect much more with the Trinitarian Christian God as community and love built into the very concept of the Godhead and creation came into being because love seeks to share itself with others due to its very nature in Trinitarian thinking. The idea that God took a human body and experienced suffering, rejection, torture and death while redeeming and sacralizing human nature is still quite revolutionary out of all the religions. Trinitarian Christianity is the odd one out even within the Abrahamic religions. It says that we all have infinite worth, and that's just starting with human beings. The applications of that thinking to non-human species are considerable. The idea that we all partake in the unfolding of creation by joining in the Divine dance (as Fr. Richard Rohr puts it) is very inspirational to me.

If you see it differently, that's fine. But I know what gives me spiritual edification in my darkest moments.

 

[Nimos]

The other theories of why an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent God would create an imperfect universe only has meaning in a geocentric universe - where mankind is the centre of creation. In a Hubble perspective (Home) they are meaningless.

Humans are just as meaningless in a Universe with God as with one without as long as one can't demonstrate that we are not.

Obviously you can, and most believers do, assume that we are important, that we are special. But regardless of how one twice and turn it, there is still no explanation to why a God finding humans so special, would allow so much harm to come to us. It simply doesn't fit the average human understanding of what love, or finding someone special means.

No humans who love someone would allow any unnecessary harm to get to them on purpose. Maybe God understanding of love is completely different from ours, but in that case, we would have no understanding of what God is or want.

Basically what religious people like him does, is that he makes a claim.... "My beliefs tells me im special".... "Your belief, since its different, means that you are not special."

Fair enough, but its nothing but a claim.... I could do the same.... "My beliefs tell me that I live in reality..." ... "Yours means that you don't"

Either of these examples, whether its his or mine makes any sense on less they can be demonstrated.

The earth is the size of a grain of sand on all the combined beaches of the world! Why on earth would the Divine Source of this unbelievably and inconceivably vast universe require earthlings who are only 100,000 years in existence on a temporary grain of sand want, need or require our, worship, adoration and validation?

That's a good question.

So Hinduism concludes that there is only one possible reason for the existence of the Universe - Divine Play. When one dances or plays - there is no purpose, goal or aim to be achieved there is just self-satisfaction, self-pleasure. This is illustrated by the dance of Lord Shiva as naṭarāja - the dance of creation, preservation and destruction - it has its similitude in the dance of the atom.

The vast cosmos is dancing and vibrating to the tune of the cosmic drum (ḍamaru).

And this is a terrible conclusion

The reason people dance and play is not unpurposeful, for many (That enjoy it) it serves a purpose of entertainment, social interaction with others. Even if its done alone, some could find it meditative, or simply the pleasure of learning and become better at something you like. Whether you dance or play (Assume he means music?), is no different than someone playing basketball, football etc.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

... God, being perfect and self-fulfilled cannot possibly have a reason or purpose for creation. If He/She/It does have purpose then the Divine perfection is compromised.

... So Hinduism concludes that there is only one possible reason for the existence of the Universe - Divine Play. When one dances or plays - there is no purpose, goal or aim to be achieved there is just self-satisfaction, self-pleasure.

I don't understand. It seems that you are saying

• on the one hand, God cannot possibly have a reason or purpose for creation, and,
• on the other hand, Gods purpose was/is self-gratification.

That aside, are you not projecting natural emotion onto preternatural agency?

 

[Thief]

and emotion was created by ……...

 

[ManSinha]

I don't understand. It seems that you are saying

• on the one hand, God cannot possibly have a reason or purpose for creation, and,
• on the other hand, Gods purpose was/is self-gratification.

That aside, are you not projecting natural emotion onto preternatural agency?

Thanks for reading it and the critique - I just quoted someone else's viewpoint

My beliefs are close to Deism - the creator simply is -

My take - the divine dance is in a sense anthropomorphizing it so we understand - in reality - who knows? You are very astute in your pick up of the apparent dissonance in the explanation but here is another viewpoint for you to consider / reflect on

The Nasadiya Sukta or the hymn of creation from the RigVeda composed arguably 3500-4000 years ago (some say in temporal sync with the Torah)

ko addhā veda ka iha pra vocat kuta ājātā kuta iyaṃvisṛṣṭiḥ |
arvāgh devā asya visarjanenāthā ko veda yataābabhūva ||
iyaṃ visṛṣṭiryata ābabhūva yadi vā dadhe yadi vā na |
yo asyādhyakṣaḥ parame vyoman so aṅgha veda yadi vā naveda ||

6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

6 Who verily knows and who can here declare it, whence it was born and whence comes this creation?
The Gods are later than this world's production. Who knows then whence it first came into being?
7 He, the first origin of this creation, whether he formed it all or did not form it,
Whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, he verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not.

Excellent.

The Etz Hayim Torah and Commentary notes:

The first letter of the first word in the Torah ... is the Hebrew letter 'bet'. This prompted the Midrash to suggest that, just as the letter 'bet' in enclosed on three sides but open to the front, we are not to speculate on the origins of God or what may have existed before Creation [Gen. R. 1:10]. The purpose of such a comment is not to limit scientific enquiry into the origins of the universe but to discourage efforts to prove the unprovable. ... The Torah begins with 'bet', second letter of the Hebrew alphabet, to summon us to begin even if we cannot begin at the very beginning.
​

Knowing what we do not and cannot know is a useful first step.