dybmh
ויהי מבדיל בין מים למים
Hello RF'ers,
There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):
I propose the following:
Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath
Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
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2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?
Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.
Thank you,
There's an idea among some Jewish thinkers, that almost everything that exists can be used by humans for either good or evil, benefit or harm, construction or destruction, etc... There are only 3 things that exist which are completely unholy for us, which can never be elevated to a noble, virtuous, and constructive purpose. These three things are alluded to in Ezekiel's vision, ( chapter 1 verse 4 ):
וָאֵרֶא וְהִנֵּה רוּחַ סְעָרָה בָּאָה מִן־הַצָּפוֹן עָנָן גָּדוֹל וְאֵשׁ מִתְלַקַּחַת וְנֹגַֽהּ לוֹ סָבִיב וּמִתּוֹכָהּ כְּעֵין הַֽחַשְׁמַל מִתּוֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃
And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
There is speculation on what these three completely unholy things are, but, to the best of my knowledge, no one has concluded what they are.And I looked, and, behold, a stormy wind came from the north, a great cloud, and a fire flaring up, and a brightness was around it, out of its midst, as the color of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
I propose the following:
Fire Flaring = complete destruction = wrath
Wrath is unique and completely unholy because it is an excessive retaliation. It is not justice where the punishment fits the crime. Wrath says, "you hurt me, I'm going to kill you, your whole family, burn your house down, and erase your name from memory." I cannot imagine a human being using wrath in a noble, virtuous, and constructive manner.
Great Cloud = complete obstruction of vision = false words
False words are unique because these are not half-truths, metaphors, analogies, being polite, etc... These are claims which are absolutley false in each and every way. Examples I've made in a recent thread are: "up is down", "good is evil", "light is darkness". I cannot imagine anything productive about these sorts of statements. They're not poetic; they're not funny; is there anything constructive that comes from a human speaking literal false words? If a person speaks this way, isn't the natural response to stop listening to them? It's a communication failure.
Stormy wind = ( literal translation ) tempest spirit = vain-glory
Vain-glory is a specific type of glory. Vain-glory charges out and conquers for no other purpose other than to validate a person's excessive, self-gratifying, reputation. This is not glory in battle, this is not action motivated by pride in a legitimate superiority. It's source is vainity which is inherently false. Is there any way for a person to channel pure vain-glory in a constructive action?
1) Do you agree that these 3 things are completely and in every possible situation unholy / destructive / without virtue?2) Are there any other things which you deem to be completely without virtue?
Bonus question: You may have noticed I qualified my proposal saying that these are unholy for people. Arguably, God in the Hebrew bible does all 3 of these things. Is it possible that these three things ( and any others that are proposed ) are somehow holy for God, eventhough they are unholy for people? For this debate I will attempt to take the affirmative position on this, if anyone is interested in discussing it.
Thank you,