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Only Atheists can be Truly Moral

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

Yes, the orphan in a sense would be more 'moral'. It is more difficult for the orphan, and they don't have the incentive of parents.
 
Ceridwen018 said:
destinata7,

Yes, the orphan in a sense would be more 'moral'. It is more difficult for the orphan, and they don't have the incentive of parents.

Ah, but you contradict your original proposal that neither had anything to gain from their good deed! It's a simple case of apples vs. oranges....you proposed two apples and ended up with an apple and an orange!
 
LCMS Sprecher said:
"It is amazing how I have seen kids my age from both LCMS and Catholic faith, and on a whole the LCMS kids live more upstanding lives and our religion doesn't even require us to (mind-boggling eh...)!"- myself in earlier post

I don't think I said there that Catholics are more sinful than Lutherans. I was stating more or less that in an environment that requires works for salvation such acts of good are not as common. However, in an environment that does not require good works for salvation, I have seen a greater amount of good done. The system of works righteousness, I my personal experiences, tends to not produce the good works that it is based on. If an inferrence was made that LCMS kids are better than Catholic kids then I apologize for making inferrence possible from not writing clearly enough. We are all equally sinful, no one is better than the other person.

I forgive you brother......my forgiveness proceeds right through the front doors of the nearest Lutheran church or anywhere else for that matter. While I revel in the glory of love.....I guess I have a duality of nature. I appreciate a good debate! Please don't take personal my full-fledged verbal abuse!


destinata7- As far as your questions on Lutheran justification and the possible holes in it, I will just give you a rundown on it.

Essentially, Lutheran doctrine states that we are be saved by grace and by grace alone. This is because it is not possible for us as sinful humans to even work off a share of our sins. Biblically speaking, you are neither damned for doing good works nor not doing good works. You are saved by Christ's death on the cross, and that gift which is grasped by faith is all that saves. If you refuse that faith and you say that you are not saved solely by Christ's death on the cross, then you will be damned. My religion is not the "all saved in the world" kind of religion that it seems to be portrayed as. I think this is probably because it gets mixed up with the truly reformed doctrine and everyone thinks that it refers to a kind of "universal pre-destination." That is not the case, because one can refuse the gospel by saying, for example, that Jesus did not die for their sins, or they can add to that sacrifice and work off part of the bill themselves etc... All these different additions or subtractions from the gospel of God, essentially is a refusal of it in it's original form. Does good works play a role in justification, no. Why? Because, by saying that it has a human element. It becomes a "what can man do to pull himself from the grave" kind of deal. It stops being about Christ and His sacrifice on the cross, and starts being about man's works and deeds.

The problem here is that we have different definitions for "works", "deeds" and being "saved". The Bible says "he who endures to the end, the same shall be saved". I believe that there are different stages to being "saved" and if you haven't "endured to the end" then I do not believe that the final stage of that being "saved" has been fulfilled.

You see, I don't believe that all mankind was cursed because of Adam's sin. Upon careful examination, the Bible does not say this. Nor do I believe that the brutal slaying of a wonderful man/god is an act that releases all mankind from sin. I believe that the example of a man being so full of love that He would lay down His life for the world is truly an inspiriational and freeing message.

But "faith without works is dead" as the Bible says, and again Jesus Himself taught that there is reward in heaven for good deeds achieved here on earth. I don't agree with the Catholic practice of the selling of indulgences, which is what started the whole Lutheran movement to start with...



In regards to 1 Peter 4:8-
"And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins." 1 Peter 4:8

Charity is an interchangeable word for love. The NIV version of the Bible has the following verse.

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers a multitude of sins."

Alot of the older translations of the Bible use charity instead of love. Therefore, that verse does not refer to good works. On another note, that verse is very correct, because love shown in forgiveness does cover a multitude of sins. After all, Christ's love for us shown by His death on the cross washed away all of ours.

Christ's performance of love was definitely an "act" or "work" of love. Furthermore, the instructions that if we work acts of love for each other our sins can further be covered contradicts the entire Lutheran doctrine that nothing further can be added to the effect of the sacrifice of Christ...our sins already being completely covered.....than why would Peter suggest that there was anything at all that we could do to further cleanse us of or "cover" our sins?

"There's a little thing in the Bible called "repentance". This is a necessary step to be forgiven. Trust me, repentence is work!"- destinata7

Repentence (forgiveness and absolution) is a gift to us from God. Repentance occurs naturally from faith and faith drives us to repent our sins.

Look "repent" up in the dictionary, it is a verb and definitely an action whether faith driven or not. An action requires an initiation. If our repentance is not of free-will but forced then it loses its power.

"I find attacking the motives and morals of other religions pushing the boundry..."
- destinata7

If the doctrine is contrary to Scripture and is outrightly heretical, then it is not wrong to come forward and declare them as such. Perhaps, my means in reaching that end was wrong, and for that I again apoligize. However, that is the basis for bringing the argument in the first place. Salvation through works is heretical because it takes away from Christ and puts man at the helm of his own salvation.

The Bible says:

Philip. 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.


This particular Lutheran doctrine does not jive with all of the scriptures in the Bible. In defense of the Lutheran church, they are not the only ones with these type of problems.....protestants and orthodox included. :wink:



"Is it wrong then to do good for the good feeling of joy and fulfillment that you get in return. Be careful now.....that can be an alterior motive. Based on this train of discussion, poor people everywhere will start starving because people are too afraid to give because they might have a hidden motive."- destinata7

That is not a point I was or wished to make. Good works are not wrong. We are encouraged by God in Holy Scripture to care for the poor and do good for others. Good works become wrong when you try to equate them with salvation. Outside of that, they are fine. I didn't say that good works are wrong if you expect something from them. They are only wrong if you are expecting salvation for them!

How many Lutherans go to church because of the expected reward of heaven and eternity with God?

I couldn't help but notice that you dodged my question regarding tithing to your church and tax receipts.....

Do you tithe to the Lutheran church?

Do you use the tax receipt for tax benefits?
 
"I couldn't help but notice that you dodged my question regarding tithing to your church and tax receipts....."- destinata7

Sorry about that. I had alot to respond to so that seemed to have slipped by me when I was writing my response. I will give the following answers.

"Do you tithe to the Lutheran church?"- destinata7

Yes, roughly 10% every week. Some Sundays I forget or do not have the cash on hand, but I am not damned for that.

"Do you use the tax receipt for tax benefits?"- destinata7

Didn't know that you could do that. My church doesn't even offer tax receipts for tithes. Besides, I'm a teenager with a summer job. I barely pay taxes to begin with.

Scriptural Reference by destinata7-

"Philip. 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

You left out the next verse, which reads "for it is God who works in you to will and to act accordingly to his good purpose" (Philip. 2:13 NIV). This again affirms that all good works come from God not from man. Furthermore, working out ones salvation does not refer to works righteousness, but to the expression of one's faith and salvation via outward shows of good inspired by faith.
 
I'm going to drop our tithing discussion based on your age and inexperience with such. I'm fairly certain most Lutherans would claim tax benefits for tithing.....but it would have to be proven one way or the other.

"Philip. 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling."

This is clearly a command to be consciously obeyed.....if God does it automatically for you then why the command?

You left out the next verse, which reads "for it is God who works in you to will and to act accordingly to his good purpose" (Philip. 2:13 NIV).

What is a good "work" but a person allowing the love of God to flow from through you and to reach out to someone else? I say we have a conscious choice.....I believe that you're saying that we don't??

Do you believe in free will?

I do.

We might have to agree to disagree here. That's okay, I don't believe that you must believe as I do to achieve salvation.....
We're arguing letter of the law here and the Spirit of the whole thing has escaped our discussion.

This again affirms that all good works come from God not from man. Furthermore, working out ones salvation does not refer to works righteousness, but to the expression of one's faith and salvation via outward shows of good inspired by faith.

I don't agree with this reasoning but that's okay....if it works for you go for it!!

Sorry I was so hard on you about the whole Catholic thing.......lead a good clean life and spread the love of God from your heart and it will all work out in the end!

Sincerely,
 

Zoot

New Member
This is all similar to an objection to Kant's ethics of duty. Basically, Kant said that the truly moral act is the rational act - working out rationally what would be best if everyone did it, and doing that, whether or not you want to. That last part's important, because he also implied that it was more moral for someone to do their duty when they didn't want to than when they did want to.

So the problem is, good people want to do good things. But good actions are more moral when done by someone who doesn't want to do them.

Anyway, taking Chris Christian and Andy Atheist in the OP, they both give to charities and stuff, and Chris believes he'll get rewarded in Heaven and Andy doesn't, so does that make Andy's actions more moral than Chris'?

Firstly, what are we assuming about what makes an action moral? Obviously, we're assuming that an action done for reward is less moral than an action done for no reward. We're also assuming that Andy's action is done less for reward than Chris'. But is that really true? Doesn't Andy get something out of it? He gets the pleasure buzz of having helped someone, and perhaps he avoids the unpleasantness of guilt that he would have if he passed up an opportunity to help someone.

Secondly, we're assuming that Chris believes he'll be compensated for his generosity in Heaven. I don't think many Christians really believe this. For the most part, Christians believe that they can't possibly do anything to deserve any kind of compensation in Heaven. This doesn't necessarily help, since their actions may be motivated by feelings of guilt, and that doesn't smack of morality much to me, either. Ideally, the Christians should be doing good with no thought to himself or his actions at all. Ideally, the charity of the Christian comes naturally, because the Christian has worked to reduce his own selfishness in order that God may act through him.

The whole thing comes down to what counts as a "good" motivation to do something moral. We don't do things unless we have a reason to, and the OP implies that having a reason to do something moral makes the deed less moral. The closest we can come is when we ask someone, "Why did you do that?" and they say, "It was the right thing to do." But then we can still ask, "Why do you do the right thing?" and there's a good chance that, with enough honesty and interrogation, we'll learn that Joe Interrogated would feel bad if he didn't do "the right thing" and feels good when he does "the right thing".

But then, I'm an atheist, and I don't believe in any objective morality, so the whole thing's moot to me.
 
Hello Zoot,

just a few comments on your discussion.

But good actions are more moral when done by someone who doesn't want to do them.

Where did this concept come from? If someone didn't want to do it than why did they? They were forced? If so that hardly makes the deed more moral than someone who wants to do it out of the goodness of their heart.

Also, it seems you may have covered this point but I'm not completely certain because of your wording:

Just because a christian does a good act why is it automatically assumed that he does it for benefit. I've done good deeds for people without any thought at all as to Godly rewards or heaven. Some people may work that way but not every christian.....that is what you call stereotyping.

On the flip side there has been an automatic assumption that an atheist would have nothing to gain by a good deed.....nice try all who said this (this whole post is not entirely directed at you Zoot)!

Do you really believe that all atheists do good deeds with nothing to gain? Again we have a stereotypical situation. I'm sure some atheists do good deeds only out of the goodness of their heart, but not all. That would be a ridiculous proposal that I could easily disprove.

Now, apples to apples, one human being (a christian) who does a good deed with truly nothing in his mind to gain compared to another human being (an atheist) who does a good deed with truly nothing in his mind to gain.......now we have an apple to apple comparison. And if neither truly had anything in their minds for reward when they did the deed, the act is equally moral for each of them.

If one were to throw in an after the fact comment (as someone on this forum did...I won't name names) that one of them really did have a hidden motive, then you are now dealing with apples to oranges and the pure test case has been contaminated and the results biased.
 

Zoot

New Member
Dest,

The idea in Kant is that doing your duty because it is your duty, rather than because you want to do it, is a morally superior action to doing your duty when it coincides with your personal desires. It's more commendable to be making some kind of sacrifice in doing good than it is to be doing good that you'd do regardless of whether or not it was good, simply because you wanted to do it in the first place.

There's all kinds of problems with the idea, but it seems to be an underlying assumption of the points in the original post.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Ceridwen018 said:
There is much talk about whether or not Atheists can be moral people, for we don't have such things as the Bible to guide us, but think of this:

An Atheist and a Christian (or anyone of any religion-- i'll use 'Christian' here just to keep it simple) both donate the same amount to the same charity. I argue that the charitable action of the Atheist is more moral than that of the Christian, because the Atheist did so without any incentive or motivation.

The Christian has heaven to look forward to, so in truth, no good thing they do goes un-rewarded. The Atheist on the other hand, doesn't believe in an afterlife, and so they donate genuinely expecting nothing in return.

Does not the expectation of reimbursement negate the morality of an action?

Ceridwen, just curious, where do you see an agnostic in this charitable giving? Would I be as moral for my donation as an atheist? Less?
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
The Voice of Reason,

Hmmm...well, I suppose that would depend on what you're thinking personally. The basic premise is that Christians (or any religius person, really--Muslims, etc. are in this category too) are less moral because they do charitable works to get brownie points from god, and therefore have personal gain. Atheists on the other hand, obviously do not believe in god, and therefore do their works of charity out of their own desire for help. This is some serious stereotyping--not all Christians do charitable works just because they have too, and not all Atheists do charitable works for the right reasons, but generalization keeps it simpler.

So basically, it depends on WHY you are doing what you're doing. As an agnostic, I assume that you haven't totally ruled god out, then again, it seems like it would be difficult to do charitable works for something that you're not sure you believe. Where do you think you stand?
 
Ceridwen018 said:
The Voice of Reason,

This is some serious stereotyping--not all Christians do charitable works just because they have too, and not all Atheists do charitable works for the right reasons, but generalization keeps it simpler.

Ceridwen, let us examine this statement of yours. Allow me to make a statement that I do not truly believe but sounds similar:

Not all atheists are bad people just as all christians are not bad people either. However, for simplicity's sake, we'll just go ahead and say that all atheists are bad people! These generalizations work out so well for everybody, don't you think so? :roll:

So basically, it depends on WHY you are doing what you're doing.

This has much more logic to it and really dispels generalizations.....especially since it's so hard to prove what people's motivations really are. Let's leave those judgments alone for now.

As an agnostic, I assume that you haven't totally ruled god out, then again, it seems like it would be difficult to do charitable works for something that you're not sure you believe. Where do you think you stand?

It's really not that hard at all. When you do a good deed, do you do this only specifically because of a direct reward that you are expecting to receive for this good deed? If so, then your good deed is not as moral of an act as someone who does it with nothing to gain by it.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
destinata7,

Ceridwen, let us examine this statement of yours. Allow me to make a statement that I do not truly believe but sounds similar:

Not all atheists are bad people just as all christians are not bad people either. However, for simplicity's sake, we'll just go ahead and say that all atheists are bad people! These generalizations work out so well for everybody, don't you think so?

You are absolutely right. After further consideration, I agree that although generalization makes things simpler, it is not fair at all. What I should have done, is separated the basic concept from an Atheist Vs. Christian playing field, so here goes:

If someone performs a charitable work expecting or hoping for some kind of reward or personal gain, is that less moral than someone who does not expect any kind of retribution?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Ceridwen,

Upon further thought, I would question the very premise of this thread. Does doing a charitable act (in and of itself) make one moral at all? I would propose that while charity is an honorable virtue, it does not necessarily make one moral. I would throw this out there for discussion - what makes one moral? For me, I would suggest that adhering to what one believes is morally right would qualify a person as moral. Since morals differ from one individual to another, this whole area may be a quagmire - possibly a thread of its own. On one of these threads, someone said that morally right for them is "never doing harm to another being unless it is necessary" (I probably got the quote wrong, but the intent is there). So for this person, charitable giving would be neither moral or amoral.
 
The Voice of Reason said:
Ceridwen,

Upon further thought, I would question the very premise of this thread. Does doing a charitable act (in and of itself) make one moral at all? I would propose that while charity is an honorable virtue, it does not necessarily make one moral. I would throw this out there for discussion - what makes one moral? For me, I would suggest that adhering to what one believes is morally right would qualify a person as moral. Since morals differ from one individual to another, this whole area may be a quagmire - possibly a thread of its own. On one of these threads, someone said that morally right for them is "never doing harm to another being unless it is necessary" (I probably got the quote wrong, but the intent is there). So for this person, charitable giving would be neither moral or amoral.

Voice of reason,

I believe that Ceridwen was tackling a specific act as being more moral or less moral depending on the itent more than the collective morality of the people themselves.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
 

Gunnard

Member
The only way to get rid of any trace of what you think is the wrong kind of motivation to help somebody out of the goodness of your heart, is to not live by that whole needless system that promotes that kind of motivation. The morally good stuff is universal and doesn't need anything to go with it.

Even though somebodies intention is good, all that extra stuff makes you look a little bad to others not of your kind. This is all you need to be told:

"it is a good thing to do something good just for the heck of it, nothing more"

This right here is what we all NEED to do and the extra junk is what we all WANT to do. The extra junk just gets in the way and when stretched to the extreme can hurt us.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Destinata,

I agree that Ceridwen was speaking in the singular, not the collective when she posed the question of who is more moral when making a charitable donation.
My point was that perhaps this question is misleading (as stated). The question implies that charitable giving is inherently indicative of morality - while I am suggesting that this may not be the case.

For me, whether the Atheist or Theist is more moral in this situation would be dependent upon the morals of the individual making the donation.
I was suggesting that while the charitable donation would be an honorable thing to do, it would not NECESSARILY be moral (or amoral) for that particular individual.
 
The Voice of Reason said:
Destinata,

I agree that Ceridwen was speaking in the singular, not the collective when she posed the question of who is more moral when making a charitable donation.
My point was that perhaps this question is misleading (as stated). The question implies that charitable giving is inherently indicative of morality - while I am suggesting that this may not be the case.

For me, whether the Atheist or Theist is more moral in this situation would be dependent upon the morals of the individual making the donation.
I was suggesting that while the charitable donation would be an honorable thing to do, it would not NECESSARILY be moral (or amoral) for that particular individual.

Your wording is a little confusing to me. Let me ask for clarification.

1] Your point is that a good deed in itself may not be considered moral at all

or

2] Your point is that a good deed may not be moral if the person who performs it is considered to be immoral


Is it one or two...or am I missing your whole point altogether?
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
Destinata,

I would say that number one is closest to my point (number two is definitely NOT my intent).

A good deed does not necessarily have to be moral (or amoral). Since morals themselves are not absolutes (and vary from one belief system to another - let alone from one individual to another), that what one considers a good deed and hence, moral, someone else might not consider good or bad (hence neither moral or amoral).
 
The Voice of Reason said:
Destinata,

I would say that number one is closest to my point (number two is definitely NOT my intent).

A good deed does not necessarily have to be moral (or amoral). Since morals themselves are not absolutes (and vary from one belief system to another - let alone from one individual to another), that what one considers a good deed and hence, moral, someone else might not consider good or bad (hence neither moral or amoral).

Okay, I'm reading you now. Because most people could not even agree if any one good deed was actually moral or not the whole line of conversation is pointless.

However, it is kosher in math, science and other fields to start with an assumption and to apply that assumption in an equation to see how the rest of the equation pans out. It is also possible that one may find out if the assumption itself can be proven in the process.

So if Ceridwen starts with the assumption that the good deed in question will automatically be universally accepted as moral, many interesting discoveries may be unearthed in the process. In this particular case I'm not certain anything tremendously valuable has been achieved here yet, other than the concept that it is wrong to stereotype has emerged.....but I think we all already agreed on that anyway!
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
If we accept the premise that donating to charity is a universally agreed upon, morally good deed, then yes, I would agree with Ceridwen's original position that to do a good deed altruistically is a good thing. Whether or not is "more" moral than a person that does it for personal gain is still open to debate (at least in my mind).

If you pull a man from a burning building because he is rich and may reward you, does that mean less to the potential victim than someone that ran into the building and saved him without knowing he was rich?
I would submit that the man would be greatful in either case, and both "heroes" would be able to claim that they had done a morally good deed.

Perhaps this whole argument is very close to the line of reasoning about whether some sins are worse than others (i.e. a "white" lie as opposed to a lie for personal gain).
 
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