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Only Capitalists Create Jobs

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
The best we can hope for is self-correction to this problem, ie, a stable feedback loop. If voters recognize that excessive taxation gives diminishing returns, then the pendulum will swing back & forth, ideally without catastrophic failure.

But the clock is skewed so the pendulum is just swinging to and fro on the left side. Hell even Reagan increased spending in to enable his tax cuts, while Bush I raised taxes and Bush II increased spending more than Clinton. The Republicans are socialist-lite. And with about 50% of the public not paying income taxes, what do they care about raising taxes to pay their welfare, much less getting educated (by who, government schools?) on how taxes and economics work. They're too busy swilling beer on the couch while watching American Idol on their 80" TVs.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But the clock is skewed so the pendulum is just swinging to and fro on the left side. Hell even Reagan increased spending in to enable his tax cuts, while Bush I raised taxes and Bush II increased spending more than Clinton. The Republicans are socialist-lite. And with about 50% of the public not paying income taxes, what do they care about raising taxes to pay their welfare, much less getting educated (by who, government schools?) on how taxes and economics work. They're too busy swilling beer on the couch while watching American Idol on their 80" TVs.
I don't entirely disagree.
Continued economic survival will be messy & imperfect at best.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
I'm not going to swallow that whole, so I'm gonna need to see those definitions, of capitalism and work, before I can proceed any further with your class-warfare demagogic post.
The definitions I'm working from would have been wholly uncontroversial up until the mid-20th century, when there was a concerted effort to muddy the discourse by defining things in fuzzy ways (for example, treating captialism as if it referred to trade in general, in order to make anti-capitalist arguments sound absurd).

Capitalism is a theory of ownership in an industrial context, in which the owners of capital are held to be solely entitled to the profits of the venture (hence the name). All labor that goes into producing the goods and services are treated as a production cost that the capitalist covers in the form of wages. Wages are seen as fair recompense because capitalism explicitly denies the labor theory of value, according to which workers are entitled to the products of their labor. Instead capitalists are seen as justified in paying the workers whatever they think they can get away with (based on the market theory of value, hence terms like "labor market"). That isn't to say that some capitalists don't don a suit and sit in an office making phone calls or attending meetings, but that's not what has been traditionally referred to in terms of work or labor in classical economic jargon. Hence the sharp divide between the capitalist and working classes, and the very sharp power disparity between them.

And nowadays most capitalists are shareholders in corporations who don't even necessarily have executive duties. Simply plunking down the cash is enough to entitle you to a share of the dividends. That is capitalism in its most basic, elemental form.

Socialism, by contrast, is based on the labor theory of value, which holds that the workers who do the producing are entitled to the full value of what they produce, and that paying them a pittance and sending the profits back to the owners of the capital constitutes a kind of theft or parasitism on the part of the capitalists (who probably only had capital in the first place because of a history of exploitation, theft, banditry, and gaming the system). And despite mythology to the contrary, the system isn't designed to create new capitalists. It happens, but it's extremely rare, as the capitalist class isn't terribly keen on competition. Hence the need to keep wages low, gut social services that might help working-class folk get a leg up, and basically everything that's designed to keep working people perpetually one bad year away from homelessness and starvation. The socialist sees this as an illegitimate form of oligarchy and wonders why it is that we allow a minority of moneyed individuals to determine how we live our lives--or indeed whether we continue to do so--and why we are content to beg them for their table scraps while they live like kings, constantly telling us that if we're good little dogs we'll get castles of our own someday.
 

Vishvavajra

Active Member
Hah! Try being one, & see just how easy it is.
Not one of my employees ever put in as many hours as I did.
Are you an actual capitalist or a small business owner? The two have traditionally been regarded as very different concepts. Capitalists don't need to take out loans to start businesses. Small business owners are basically working-class folks who are playing at capitalism.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
Are you an actual capitalist or a small business owner?
I am one & the same!
The two have traditionally been regarded as very different concepts. Capitalists don't need to take out loans to start businesses. Small business owners are basically working-class folks who are playing at capitalism.
Some corrections:
Capitalists take out loans all the time to start businesses.
To run a small business is hardly "playing at capitalism".
(Tis serious business.)

Now, for a good & commonly used definition of capitalism from Dictionary.com.....
an economic system in which investment in and ownership of the means of production, distribution, and exchange of wealth is made and maintained chiefly by private individuals or corporations, especially as contrasted to cooperatively or state-owned means of wealth.
I've started & owned businesses as both an individual & as a corporation.
So I fit the definition.
You cannot dismiss my by some lame No True Capitalist Fallacy, bub!
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
I don't entirely disagree.
Continued economic survival will be messy & imperfect at best.

Yes, but all things else being equal, the economy will be better for all, by far, under libertarian capitalism.

The definitions I'm working from would have been wholly uncontroversial up until the mid-20th century, when there was a concerted effort to muddy the discourse by defining things in fuzzy ways (for example, treating captialism as if it referred to trade in general, in order to make anti-capitalist arguments sound absurd).

Not absurd, just the socialists and anarchists screwing with the dictionary as is their perpetual want.

Capitalism is a theory of ownership in an industrial context, in which the owners of capital are held to be solely entitled to the profits of the venture (hence the name).

Yeah, but a capitalist is also a guy who takes his own money and opens a book store, hires employees, and keeps the profits from the capital he risked, if there are any. The employees only risk loosing their jobs if the venture fails, along with the owners capital. Capitalist:
: a person who has capital, especially invested in business;

You're talking about a government of the wealthy, which is a plutocracy. If a government sells itself to corporate interests, and the voters don't hold them accountable, who is ultimately responsible?
All labor that goes into producing the goods and services are treated as a production cost that the capitalist covers in the form of wages. Wages are seen as fair recompense because capitalism explicitly denies the labor theory of value, according to which workers are entitled to the products of their labor.

You mean communism.

And there are many avenues available to such workers to turn some of their earnings back in to their own company or other companies if they choose. The widely popular IRA does that very thing for workers. Then the government can come along, force banks to loan money to those who can't afford it, and crash the economy. The corporations get the blame since the Truth rarely makes it out of the lock the mainstream media has on it.

And nowadays most capitalists are shareholders in corporations who don't even necessarily have executive duties. Simply plunking down the cash is enough to entitle you to a share of the dividends. That is capitalism in its most basic, elemental form.

RE: my last paragraph.

Socialism, by contrast, is based on the labor theory of value, which holds that the workers who do the producing are entitled to the full value of what they produce, and that paying them a pittance and sending the profits back to the owners of the capital constitutes a kind of theft or parasitism on the part of the capitalists

But it doesn't work because there is no risk reward incentive for gathering the capital in the first place--and it is much more vulnerable to predatory despots.
(who probably only had capital in the first place because of a history of exploitation, theft, banditry, and gaming the system).
More demagogic class warfare.


And despite mythology to the contrary, the system isn't designed to create new capitalists. It happens, but it's extremely rare, as the capitalist class isn't terribly keen on competition.

I agree, but that's the result of corporate/government cronyism. And what one system perpetuates and worsens that situation? The income tax. Notice we don't tax wealth, only income and the greater the income the bigger the cut. It's keeps new members in the top mega-wealthy few and far between.

Hence the need to keep wages low, gut social services............

Socialism has been keeping social services growing for the last 80 years, culminating in the latest economy crushing train wreck, Obamacare. The U.S. "poor" were already covered. The fact you can't/won't see that speaks for a rock hard bias.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Then the government can come along, force banks to loan money to those who can't afford it, and crash the economy.
This is silly.

ThePainefulTruth said:
The corporations get the blame since the Truth rarely makes it out of the lock the mainstream media has on it..
The mainstream media which is owned by corporations and dependent upon advertisers who skewer negative publicity and distort editorials in their favour?
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is silly.
The mainstream media which is owned by corporations and dependent upon advertisers who skewer negative publicity and distort editorials in their favour?
Don't forget the very influential media giant, Corporation For Public Broadcasting (created by the fed), which caters to government & donors (primarily Dems) far more so than its advertisers.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
But not to those who get their "news" from Fox or from Lush Limbaugh.
This insult reminds me of a fundie friend who always has 'clever' name based insults for Obama. His latest favorite is the "Dalai Bama". I explain that the Dalai Lama is a pretty good guy, & rather different from Obama (eg, he favors gun ownership for self defense), thus being lame. I try to explain that insult comedy is best when the name has an element shameful reality. The act of off-the-mark rhyming just falls flat.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
This is silly.
It has some basis in reality though. I talk politics with bankers I know, & they've told me that auditors have a great deal of control, & can require such changes in their portfolio if they want permission to merge with another bank. And then there's the Community Reinvestment Act.
 

ThePainefulTruth

Romantic-Cynic
This is silly.

The mainstream media which is owned by corporations and dependent upon advertisers who skewer negative publicity and distort editorials in their favour?

But not to those who get their "news" from Fox or from Lush Limbaugh.

It's what caused the crash of '08. But don't take my word for it, or Fox News, or Limbaugh. Read Reckless Endangerment by two NY Times (the bastion of liberal "journalism") reporters. It goes back to a program that started under Jimmy Carter, and most of the damage was done under Clinton. Much as I'd like to, I can't give Obama much of the blame......for that. Hell some of the blame can be loaded up on Bush II, Mr. Socialist Lite.
 
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